HC Deb 01 February 1809 vol 12 cc271-6

(By Mr. Wardle.)

Did you desire Dr. Thynne to use his influence with Mrs. C. to have an exchange between your brother lieut.-col. Knight, and lieut. col. Brooke, carried into effect? I did.

Did you authorize Dr. T. to hold out any personal temptation to Mrs. C. to induce her to carry the point? Yes.

To what amount did you authorize Dr. T. to offer Mrs. C.? 200l.

After the exchange was effected, did you, by yourself or any other person, give any sum of money to Mrs. C.? Yes.

To what amount? 200l.

Had col. Knight any positive promise from the Commander in Chief for this exchange with col. Brooke, prior to such application to Mrs. C.? My brother applied in the regular way to the D. of Y. and received the usual official answer on the subject, that whenever a proper successor could be found, there would be no objection to the exchange taking place.

Do you know of any positive promise of the Commander in Chief, prior to the application to Mrs. C. that that exchange should take place? No.

Where was the application made to Mrs. C.? There was some delay in the business, from what cause I do not know, and I stated that circumstance to Dr. Thynne, who happened to be attending my family at that time. He replied, that he thought he could be of service, by applying to a friend of his, Mrs. C. I told him I should be much obliged to him if he would apply to her, and that I should be happy to give 200l.if the business could be carried into effect, as my brother was in a very bad state of health at the time, and I was very desirous that he should exchange to infantry, for the purpose of going upon half pay, that he might recover his health. I believe he had served as long as any man in the country of his age, and suffered by it; he had served 23 years, and I believe he has been in every battle during the French revolution; and it was my anxiety to serve him, that has placed me in this distressing and painful situation.

How did you send the 200l. to Mrs. C.? Under a blank cover, as far as my recollection serves me, by my servant. I do not think that I made any observation in the enclosure, but directed it simply to her.

(By Mr. Leach.)

Did you see Mrs. C. soon after the notice in the Gazette that the exchange was effected, and for what purpose did you see her? I saw her, I think, in the month of September, for the purpose of thanking her.

Upon that occasion did Mrs. C. desire you to be secret with respect to this transaction; and did she assign any, and what reason for that secrecy? She did intreat me to keep it a secret, lest it should come to the D. of Y.'s ears.

Have you seen Mrs. C. within the last month, and how did it happen that you saw her? She wrote, to beg that I would come to her, about a month ago; to which letter I made no reply. She wrote a second letter, as far as my recollection serves me, about ten days ago. I went to her, and she asked me the name of the officer who had exchanged with my brother; I told her. She made a number of complaints of her having been ill-treated by the D. of Y.'; that he had deserted her and left her in debt, I think to the amount of 2,000l.; and that she was determined, unless she could bring him to terms, to expose him in the manner in which she is now endeavouring to do. I said that that was her affair, but that I trusted she would not introduce either me or my brother. She said, O good God! no, by no means, it is not my intention, you can have nothing at all to do with it. That passed in the drawing-room; and I took my leave, and heard nothing of her since; and I was very much surprized to hear of my name being mentioned in the way in which it has. I was thunderstruck at its being done without any notice.

Had col. Brooke's name been mentioned to the D. of Y. to exchange with your brother, previously to the application to Mrs. C.? I think I have already replied, that the application was made in the regular way. I do not know it; but by a reference to the office, the papers will speak for themselves. I cannot speak from my own knowledge to that.

You have stated, that your reason for applying to Mrs. C. was, that a delay existed in the exchange taking place; do you, of your own knowledge, know where those delays took place, in what office? In the D. of Y.'s office, I suppose.

Can you state in what department of the office? I fancy that col. Gordon was secretary at the tune.

(By My Adam.)

You have mentioned that you sent the bank notes in a cover by your servant; at what time of the day did you send those notes? I am pretty sure it was hi the former pan of the day, lather early in the morning.

(By the Attorney General.)

Were they bank notes that were sent? That I cannot charge my memory with

Was it one or two notes? Upon my word, I cannot venture to say, but I rather think in two hank notes.

Can you say from whom you received the bank notes? Upon my word I cannot, it is a long while ago, nearly four years.

How long was this before your brother was gazetted? The sending was after he was gazetted.

How long before your brother was gazetted did you speak to Dr. Thynne? I should think the negociation went on near a fortnight, or from a fortnight to three weeks, as far as my recollection serves me.

Did you ever receive any note from Mrs. C. with the Gazette? No, it was from Dr. T. I received the communication.

Did you receive any letter from Dr. Thynne? That I do not recollect.

From Mrs. C. to Dr. T.? No; I do not think that I saw any letter.

Did you ever receive any letter from Mrs. C, except what you have mentioned in your former evidence? I have received several letters from her, subsequent to the transaction.

Respecting this transaction? No: I do not think I received any from her respecting this transaction.

Did you receive any answer to the note transmitting the bank notes? None.

Did your brother, to your knowledge, ever apply to the commanding officer of the 56th regiment, to recommend the exchange to the Commander in Chief? I do not know, I believe he did; I am pretty sure that he did.

Do you recollect about what time? Upon my word, I do not.

Did you receive from Dr. T. the gazette containing the account of the exchange? It now occurs to me that I went to the office for the Gazette myself, somewhere about Chancery-lane; I got it myself from the Gazette office.

How long a time elapsed between the first application being made at the Commander in Chiefs office, and the second application to Mrs. C. through Dr. T.? I think, as I said before, about from a fortnight to three weeks.

How long a time elapsed between the first application being made at the Commander in Chiefs office, and the second application to Mrs. C. through Dr. T.? Upon my word, I cannot say exactly.

About what time? It might have been ten days; but I cannot speak accurately.

(By Lord Folkestone.)

You have stated, that you went to the Gazette office to fetch the Gazette; had you any reason to suppose that the exchange would be announced in that particular Gazette, or did you go upon every publication to fetch the Gazette, to see whether it was inserted? I think I went three times in the whole.

In point of fact, before this transaction took place, had you ever learned from Mrs. Clarke that she did apply to the Commander in Chief to expedite this exchange? I cannot tell; I did not become acquainted with her till after the exchange was notified in the Gazette; about sis weeks afterwards.

In the conversations you have since had with Mrs. Clarke, did you ever understand from her, that she had in fact applied to the Commander in Chief to expedite the exchange? Of course, she took credit to herself for expediting the business.

You have no reason for presuming it, but that she took that credit; you do not know that she actually applied? I am not bound to draw inferences.

Did you ever learn from Mrs. Clarke, that she actually applied? She told me she had applied, certainly, when I saw her in September.

To whom did she say she applied? To the Duke of York.

At the time she said she had applied to the D. of Y. were the D. of Y. and she living upon terms? I do not know that of my own knowledge.

When this conversation took place, did Mr.

C. reside in Gloucester place? Yes.

Was it after she said she had applied to the

D. of Y., that she requested the transaction might he kept secret? Yes, it was after, certainly.

In point of fact, did you send the 200l. to Mrs. C. for any other reason than her interference in expediting the exchange? L certainly sent it her to do all in her power to accelerate the exchange.

(By sir F. Burdett.)

Did not Dr. Thynne transmit to you a Gazette, after the exchange had taken place between your brother and col. Brooke? I do not know but he might.

Was that accompanied with any note from Mrs. C. to Dr. T.? I do not remember that it was.

(By sir A. Piggott.)

Was it after you had sent the 200l. to Mrs. C., that Mrs. C. expressed her desire that it should be kept secret? Certainly.

Was the fact which Mrs. C. desired should be kept secret from the D. of Y., the receipt of the 200l. which you sent her? Yes.

Did she expressly desire you to conceal from the D. of Y. your having paid her 200l.; did she use those words, or, as nearly as you can recollect, what words did she use? She requested that the whole business might be kept a secret.

Did she express herself particularly, during the conversation, as to the money, or was it one general conversation as to the transaction itself? As to the transaction itself.

Was that wish of Mrs. C., that the matter might be kept secret, at the last interview you had with her about ten days ago? No, it was in the month of Sept. 1805, subsequent to the transaction in question.

How long previously to that interview had the money been transmitted? It was the day after the transaction was; notified in the Gazette; I believe, the next morning.

Did Mrs. C, in expressing a wish that the transaction might he kept secret, express a wish that the D. of Y. might not know that you had any thing to do with it? Certainly.

Was not her wish expressed, "dial it might be kept a secret from the Public? From him, the D. of Y.

Repeat, as nearly as possible, the conversation that passed upon that subject? Upon my word, I do not see how I can exactly; it is a long while ago. It is impossible that I should repeat her words.

What expression did Mrs. C. use, that you now recollect, which enables you to slate that it was not from the public, but from the D. of Y. himself, that she wished it to be kept Secret? She begged it might be kept a secret from the D. of Y. I do not know how to shape my answer in any other way; it is impossible to recollect every word that passed four years ago.

Did she add to that request, or did she join with that request, that your having any thins; to do with it might he kept from the D. of Y.? She was anxious that the whole transaction might be kept from him.

Did she say, or give you to understand directly, that the D. of Y. would object to your being a party in the transaction, more, probably, than to any other person? No.

Do you know mat this exchange took place in consequence Of your application to Mrs. C? I cannot say that I know it; it is impossible that I can say that, for the application had been in the War-Office some time previous to the transaction with Mrs. C.; I should think it must have been in the Office from ten days to a fortnight, but I cannot speak exactly; hut that is a fact very easily got at by reference to the War-Office; the correspondence is to be found, no doubt.

Did you ever ask Mrs C. whether she applied to h. r. h. the D. of Y. to expedite that exchange? It does not occur to my mind that I asked her that question.

Did she ever say that she had applied to the D. of Y.? I understood that she had applied to the Duke, most certainly.

Did Mrs. C. appear more anxious that the transaction might be kept a secret from the D. of Y. than from the Public? The Public was never mentioned in the business.

Was the Gazette, which was transmitted to you from Dr: T;, transmitted in a blank cover, or with any letter from the Doctor? I do not remember.

When Mrs. C. told yon, that unless the D. of Y. made terms, she would expose him; did she state what measures she was taking to expose the D. of Y.? No.

Do you recollect the expressions that she made use of? She stated that she had been ill treated by him, and deserted by him, and left in debt; and that if he did not pay those debts (I understood her so, however), she certainly would expose him.

(By Mr. Croker.)

Do you recollect whether you or Dr. T. first mentioned the name of Mrs. C., in the conversation you had together? I think it was Dr. T.; I became acquainted with her through him.

Was the interview you had in Sept. 1805 the first personal interview you had with Mrs. C.? Yes; but I will not he positive as to its being Sept; it might have been the latter end of Aug; it was the latter end of the year.

That was the first interview you had with her? Yes, it was.

(By Mr. Wilberforce.)

Where did Mrs. C. reside when you sent the 200l. to her? I have already stated, in Gloucester-place.

Had you any particular reason for sending the money early in the morning? No, no particular reason; I should have been sorry to have disturbed the family.

Upon this Mr. Fuller asked, Does the witness knew of his own knowledge whether this Lady lived next the Tabernacle or not? (Laughter.)

Mr. Wharton put it to the Committee, whether such a question should be asked. (Cries of No! No! mixed with a roar of laughter.)

Mr. Lascelles then observed, that an hon. genera!, a member of that house, commanded the regiment into which col. Knight exchanged. He should be glad to know whether the exchange met with his approbation.

General Norton said, "I cannot speak to the time, but col. Knight certainly applied to me, and explained himself very fully and very satisfactorily to me, or I should not have recommended the exchange which I did."