HC Deb 01 February 1809 vol 12 cc267-71

(By Mr. Wardle.)

Did you attend Mrs. Clarke, in your professional line, in July, 1805? I have attended Mrs. Clarke for the last 7 years: I do not recollect that it was in July, 1805, more than any other time. I have known her for 7 or 8 years, and in different situations; I have attended when she was ill.

Did you ever, by the desire of any person, apply to Mrs. C. respecting an exchange between lieut.-col. Knight and lieut.-col. Brooke? I have applied to Mrs. C. respecting the exchange of lieut.-col. Knight and lieut.-col. Brooke. The application I made was in consequence of an application made to me by an old and valuable friend, Mr. Robert Knight, the brother of the lieut.-colonel. He understood I was acquainted with Mrs. C, he begged I would speak to her to expedite the exchange: and I did speak to Mrs. C. upon the subject, and delivered her the message I got from Mr. Knight, and his brother, the lieut.-col., to whom I was then introduced.

What passed upon that subject between Mrs. C. and yourself? I was authorized to tell Mrs. C. that she would receive a certain sum of money; I specified the sum of 200l.

For what was the sum specified; upon what event was that sum offered? It was offered for the purpose of inducing Mrs. C. to expedite the exchange. The exchange was to take place in the office in a certain length of time; it began in the office; some delays and impediments were expected, and, in order to remove those impediments and those delays, I was authorized to say that such a sum would be given to her, if she would exert herself to expedite this exchange.

Through what medium was it expected she should obtain that exchange? I am sure I cannot answer that question; I should suppose it was pretty well known that she was acquainted with a great personage at that time; I know nothing about that; I was desired to deliver a message, and I did nothing more than deliver a message, from an old friend to Mrs. C. to induce her to expedite an exchange between two officers.

Was it not under the consideration and conviction of her, at that time, being under the protection of the Commander in Chief, that such application was made to her? Of course, if Mrs. C. was not thought likely to expedite the thing, no application would have been made to her.

I understand you expressly to have stated that you offered her 200l. for expediting this exchange; I wish to ask how many days, to the best of your recollection, there were between the application and the exchange being notified in the Gazette? I really cannot be accurate in that respect, for it made so little impression upon my mind, that I merely recollect having delivered the message. I was anxious to oblige my friend, Mr. R. Knight, but it did not concern me, and I cannot bring my mind to tell the exact period between the application and the Gazette; but I believe, it was a good deal expedited by Mrs. C.

Do you think, to the best of your recollection, it occurred within a few days or a week? I protest I cannot bear it in mind; but, I believe, a fortnight or three weeks elapsed before it was done. I cannot speak positively to that; I had nothing to do with the transaction but barely to deliver that message, and that message made no impression whatever upon my mind.

Did Mrs. C. communicate to you the circumstance of the exchange being gazetted? Mrs. C. sent the Gazette to my house, in consequence of the message I delivered to her from Messrs. Knight; the moment I received the Gazette I sent it to the parties. No money ever passed through my hands. If Mrs. C. received money, she received it through some other quarter. I solemnly declare, that no money passed through my hands whatever. I sent the Gazette to the parties, and what they did with the Gazette I do not care.

Did Mr. R. Knight alone authorize you to offer the 200l. or was lieut.-col. Knight a party to that offer? I was entirely influenced by Mr. R. Knight: his lady was an old patient of mine: he was always a great friend of mine. I had nothing to refuse Mr. R. Knight. Lieut.-col. Knight I knew little of at this time; I was introduced to him by his brother: but I was certainly influenced by Mr. R. Knight, and by nobody else.

Is the committee to understand, that lieut. col. Knight was present when this authority was given to you to offer the 200l.? I am sure I cannot answer that: for I saw Mr. R. Knight at his own house, sometimes privately, and sometimes in the company of his brother: and the transaction made so little impression upon my mind, that, alter a lapse of 3 or 4 years, it is not possible for me to relate all the circumstances: but I was influenced by Mr. R. Knight, who, as a man, I have the greatest esteem and regard for to this hour.

(By Sir Francis Burdett.)

Did you request Mrs. C. to apply to the duke of York, for the purpose of expediting the exchange of lieut.-col. Knight, in consideration of the 200l. she was to receive? I do not exactly understand the question: I beg it to be explained.

Whether you requested of Mrs. C. to apply to the D. of Y. to expedite this exchange between lieut.-col. Knight and col. Brooke, and in consequence of that application, told her she would receive the 200l.? The thing is understood; I could not have applied, nor should not have applied to Mrs. C. unless she had the means of expediting the thing; it was understood at the time that she had the means.

How did you understand that Mrs. C. possessed the means of expediting that exchange? It was understood at the time that she had some influence.

[The witness on the motion of Mr. Lockhart, was directed to withdraw, and when re-admitted, was directed by the Chairman to answer to facts within his absolute knowledge, and not to his understanding or surmise.]

Did you or not request Mrs. C. to apply to the D of Y. to expedite that exchange? I applied to Mrs. C. to beg of her to interest herself on behalf of lieut.-col. Knight, and to expedite the exchange.

Did you or not apply to Mrs. C. to request her to apply to the D. of Y. to expedite that exchange? Yes, I did so, I acknowledge that, if she had it in her power.

Was it for that purpose the 200l. was offered to Mrs. C.? For that sole purpose.

In this conversation, was the D. of Y's name personally mentioned? I am sure I cannot recollect, I cannot take upon myself to say so. It is impossible for me to recollect every circumstance of a message delivered between 3 or 4 years ago.

Was your application to Mrs. C. merely to expedite the exchange without mentioning the manner in which it was to be expedited? Certainly, without mentioning the particular manner; it was to facilitate and to expedite the exchange.

Through what medium was it expected that she should obtain that exchange? I am sure I cannot answer that question; I should suppose it was pretty well known that she was acquainted with a great personage at that time. I know nothing about that. I was desired to deliver a message, and I did nothing more than deliver a message from an old friend to Mrs. C, to icduce her to expedite an exchange between two officers.

(By Sir James Hall.)

Who was that great personage? It was Understood the Commander in Chief.

(By Mr. Wardle.)

At the time you spoke of this exchange to Mrs. C, did you give the names in writing to Mrs. C.? I believe I did on a slip of paper; and on that paper I believe I wrote, 'Lieut.-col. 'Knight wishes to exchange with lieut.-col. 'Brooke; 'if I did not write it down myself, she wrote it: it was given in writing.

(By Sir Thomas Turton.)

Subsequent to your application to Mrs. C, did she at any time communicate to you, that she had used her influence, for the purpose expressed, with the D. of Y? I do not know that I had seen Airs. C. from the first communication till she had sent the Gazette to my house; that Gazette proved that the exchange was accomplished; that Gazette I sent to the parties; and that is all I had to do with the transaction.

When that Gazette was sent by Mrs. C., did she communicate to you, that it was by her means the exchange had been obtained? Mrs. C. accompanied the Gazette with a note, to say that the exchange was accomplished, and that she was going out of town in a day or two, and that the 200l. would be very convenient.

Are you certain that those were the whole contents of the note? That was the impression upon my mind at the time. This is a transaction between 3 and 4 years ago, and having thought so little about it, I cannot be supposed to know all the circumstances; but I recollect receiving a note, and I recollect, receiving a Gazette; the Gazette I sent to the parties: and I cannot recollect any thing more than I have stated.

Since that period, has Mrs. C. ever communicated to you, that it was by her means it was obtained? Mrs. C. never said any thing to me more than sending the Gazette; for, from my first application to the receipt of the Gazette, I do not recollect having seen Mrs. C.; or if I did see her, it was merely to enquire whether any progress was making in the exchange.

Has any communication of that kind been made since the sending the Gazette? I do not recollect having had any such communication; at the same time, I believe it was expedited by her means.

Have you preserved that note? No, I have not preserved it certainly; I considered the note as one not concerning me, and I sent it to the parties with the Gazette.

(By Mr. Croker.)

Had you any reason besides your own surmise, for believing that this exchange was expedited by the interference of Mrs. C? If I recollect right, I understood that the exchange would be obtained in the regular way, in the course of time; but Mr. Knight, whether from ill health, or what other reason I know not, was desirous of having it done expeditiously; and it was in consequence of that, and his brother's wish, that I applied to Mrs. C. in the first instance.

Have yon any reason but your own surmise, for believing, that this exchange was expedited by the interference of Mrs. C? No other reason on earth.

(By Mr. Wardle.)

When yon made this application, did you not know that Mrs. C. was living with the D. of Y. and immediately under his protection? it was so understood at the time.

Did you ever see the Commander in Chief at Mrs. C.'s? Never.

(By Mr. Fuller.)

Of your own knowledge, do you know of such a relative situation between those two parties? (a laugh) I never saw the D. of Y. there in my life.

(By Mr. Wilberforce.)

Do you recollect the manner in which the proposition was at first made, engaging Mrs. C.'s interest? When I first spoke to Mrs. C. she seemed to suppose there were some difficulties in the way, and she spoke a good deal about secrecy, and of the danger that she should run if this ever transpired.

(By the Chancellor of the. Exchequer.)

Do you recollect what words she used when she expressed that sentiment? It is impossible for me, at this length of time, to recollect the precise words, but the meaning I am clear in.

You have said that Mrs. C. expressed a great desire that it should be kept secret; did she mean secret from the D. of Y. as well as the rest of the world, That is a matter of surmise.

Did you not understand from Mr. Knight, that the exchange alluded to was in a train of being effected, previous to Mrs. C.'s interest being solicited? I understood the thing would have happened in the course of time. Mr. Knight wished to have the thing expedited, I know not from what motive? and it was to expedite it that he begged of me to speak to Mrs. C. The exchange was a simple, fair thing, as I supposed, and would have gone through the office in the regular way.