HC Deb 14 June 2004 vol 422 cc499-501
1. Mr. Gordon Prentice (Pendle) (Lab)

What consultation he has had with the probation service concerning the implications for the (a) terms and conditions and (b) pensions of probation officers of the proposed establishment of the national offender management service. [178150]

3. Mr. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North) (Lab)

If he will make a statement on the negotiating arrangements between unions and employers that will be put in place for the national offender management service. [178152]

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. David Blunkett)

With the indulgence of the House, before I answer these questions, let me say that the whole House would want to commiserate with the England team but to congratulate the England fans in Portugal on their exemplary behaviour, upholding the good name of our nation and acting as an example of how football supporters should behave. We should, however, send a very clear message to those at home in Croydon, Birmingham, Boston in Lincolnshire and elsewhere who so disgracefully misbehaved last night that we will come down on them like a ton of bricks if such behaviour continues during the rest of Euro 2004.

We have received more than 600 representations on the establishment of the national offender management service, with 42 specifically in relation to the structure. My ministerial colleague, my hon. Friend the Member for Wythenshawe and Sale, East (Paul Goggins), my officials and I have had meetings with a wide range of groups, involving Martin Narey and more than 3,000 members of staff, with 18 roadshows across the country. I have personally met representatives of the TUC, the Prison Officers Association and the National Association of Probation Officers. We believe that with the extension of the consultation not only to the end of the month but over the next year, as we develop the new structures, we will be able to achieve consensus and get this right.

Mr. Prentice

There is clearly a huge amount of consultation going on, but probation officers in my constituency tell me that there are no answers to some very basic questions, and that the Government seem determined to create an internal market, with the aim of driving costs down. Why is it necessary to reorganise the service only three years after the previous reorganisation?

Mr. Blunkett

It is necessary if we are to put together, not only administratively but functionally, the services that are intended to reduce offending, to protect the public and to ensure that we have fewer people in prison. Putting together the policies, the activities and the delivery of the service by not only the Prison Service and the probation service but voluntary and community partners, and providing the community support that is crucial when people leave prison, means creating the new organisation to do so. We are very mindful of the fears in relation to the probation service. It is worth remembering that we have just put in another £10 million of revenue and £6 million of capital funding to ensure that in the areas affected by last year's changes there is no reduction in service levels. We have more than 800 trainees coming on stream. There were no trainee probation officers at all in 1996–97. The investment and the reorganisation are designed to provide a better service, not a lesser one.

Mr. Hopkins

Are not present arrangements working very well, and is it not the case that there is really no evidence that change will improve services and make them more effective?

Mr. Blunkett

I do not agree with my hon. Friend. Substantial progress has been made in providing a coherent service across the country in the development of the national probation service since its establishment in 2001, and I am grateful to officials in my Department who have worked so hard with probation officers to achieve that. Everybody knows, however, that we could improve aspects of how we deal with those who are leaving the care of the service, as well as those given community sentences, including the new intensive supervision order, and it would be a very silly politician who stood at the Dispatch Box and thought that we could not substantially improve the provision for those who have offended, and above all the protection to those who seek to be protected precisely from those offenders, by putting services together.

Mrs. Cheryl Gillan (Chesham and Amersham) (Con)

Following a highly critical report from the chief inspector of prisons, the Secretary of State is to close the women's high-security unit at Durham prison, and last weekend there was an even more damning report on Styal prison. With the number of women who have committed suicide in prison increasing by 200 per cent. since 1999, does he recognise the urgency of the need to address the particular problems faced by women in prison, and does he think that NOMS is really the answer?

Mr. Blunkett

I recognize—with the statistics that the hon. Lady rightly cited, I could hardly fail to—that there is a real challenge. I believe that the offender management service has a contribution to make, although it will not resolve the problems. To do that, we need, first, early intervention to prevent those women from getting to the stage at which they are sentenced—and we have fewer women in prison this year than we had this time last year, which is welcome progress. Secondly, we can have specialist facilities. We have just opened new facilities, and will build on those in the light of the closure of the facility at Durham. When I visited Holloway a month ago, I was impressed with the work, but not by the fact that I was told that the same facilities and support were not available out of prison. That is what helps to make the revolving door such a tragedy. I hope that the national offender management service will enable us to move closer to providing for those women when they are not in jail—when they are serving community sentences or are in preventive action, for example—the kind of support that they were receiving in Holloway jail.

Mr. Neil Gerrard (Walthamstow) (Lab)

I am sure that my right hon. Friend would agree that such wide-ranging changes need sufficient parliamentary scrutiny. If it is the intention to abolish the probation boards, which will require legislation, when might that legislation be expected, and how else does he intend to keep the House informed of progress on that significant series of changes to the Prison Service and the probation service?

Mr. Blunkett

My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State and I are both keen that we should keep the House informed, precisely because of those who, like my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow (Mr. Gerrard), have been constructively critical, as opposed to simply critical. I welcome that, because if we are to get this right, there is no simple answer. We do not have control of all the wisdom about developing a better service that will put the different elements together in a more coherent and cohesive fashion—so yes, I would give that guarantee. Secondly, we would need legislation for the changes, particularly for structural change, such as changing the boards, and we intend to bring forward a correctional services Bill as soon as parliamentary time allows, as the usual jargon goes; that means as soon as we can.