HC Deb 28 October 2003 vol 412 cc157-9
32. Mr. Andrew Dismore (Hendon)

To ask the Leader of the House if he will bring forward proposals to revert to the previous sitting hours for the House on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. [134528]

34. Bob Spink (Castle Point)

To ask the Leader of the House if he will take steps to reintroduce the sitting hours of the House for Tuesdays as they were before October 2002. [134530]

The Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Peter Hain)

No. In October last year, a majority of Members voted to alter the sitting hours so that the House now sits from 11.30 am on Tuesdays and Wednesdays. The Standing Orders were changed for the rest of this Parliament, which will allow us a sufficient period to make a considered judgment on the effect of the changes.

Mr. Dismore

The new hours really are not working as they were originally intended to. On a personal level, I find that I cannot do anything like as many constituency visits to schools and community groups as I used to do. In my Select Committee, we find that our evidence sessions are badly squeezed so that we cannot properly scrutinise experts or Ministers. Even the public cannot visit the Chamber as frequently as they could before. Hon. Members are very good at being in two places at once, but now we find on Tuesdays and Wednesdays that we have to be in three, four or five at once, and we simply cannot do it. Many of those who voted—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman has made the point.

Mr. Hain

My hon. Friend has made the point to me as well, in forceful terms. I understand the issues that he raises. There is a problem with constituency visits. Some Members have complained that the Chamber is locked in the evening, so they cannot bring visitors who may be dining with them into the Chamber. Such teething problems should be sorted out.

I am following the instructions of the House, which voted very clearly on what it wanted to do. The hours were decided for the rest of this Parliament. The priority now is to make these hours work effectively and we can deal with some of the problems that have arisen, but obviously we shall have to review them in due course.

Bob Spink

My concern is not constituency visits but the House properly holding the Government to account, and the Tuesday hours simply prevent us from doing that. They inhibit Back-Bench contributions in debate in particular. Given that the mood of the House has changed since that very tight vote on Tuesday hours, is it not time to revisit this question—or are the Government running scared of increased scrutiny?

Mr. Hain

We know who is running scared at this particular time, do we not? All the Conservative Members are chasing each other, running scared around the place. On the point that the hon. Gentleman raises—I respect his point of view on this and he is right to raise it—the fact is that there is now more scrutiny of the Executive and the Government than ever before. [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."] Oh, indeed there is. We have the Prime Minister answering questions at the Liaison Committee, topical questions are now allowed in the Chamber, and we have cross-cutting questions in Westminster Hall. The truth is that the number of hours that we sit now is exactly the same as before, so there is the same opportunity to hold the Government to account and to question Ministers. The hon. Gentleman may wish to make a point about the hours—fair enough—but he cannot defend his position by saying there is less scrutiny; there is not.

Mrs. Gwyneth Dunwoody (Crewe and Nantwich)

Is it not clear that the change in hours is bringing the House of Commons into disrepute? It is very important that we are aware of how the general public regard a House that has so little respect for itself. The House is now prepared to sit only in the middle of the week and to ignore the views of its own Members. If the Leader of the House is following the interests of elected Members, he should bring to the House a simple device to get another vote to make clear what we really think.

Mr. Hain

My hon. Friend is one of the most doughty defenders of the House's independence and of its vital role in our constitution. I acknowledge that very freely, but this is not a question of how the public relate to the Chamber. The House sits for exactly the same number of days as before. We do not sit only in the middle of the week. We sit on Monday and Thursday, and on some Fridays—[Interruption.] Yes, sometimes we do sit on a Friday. However, the real issue is whether the public understand why it is that when the rest of the population work normal hours, we do not. Another element is how the public regard an institution that was almost unique in the world in sitting the hours that it used to sit. Other legislative bodies across the world sit more normal hours.

Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough)

I congratulate the Leader of the House on what he has said today. There is clearly a difference of view on this matter. We should take stock as we would make ourselves look ridiculous if, having made a decision, we were to change our minds just a year later. We should let the House consider these matters at the beginning of the next Parliament, and in that way come to a considered view. The arguments about timetabling, for instance, may well be valid, but we should let the reforms settle down and make up our minds at the beginning of the next Parliament.

Mr. Hain

I very much endorse the hon. Gentleman's sentiments, in the sense that the House made a decision for the rest of this Parliament. There are strong views on either side of the argument, and I am listening to them. Specific points have been made about constituency visits, about the Chamber being locked too early in the evening, and about the timing of Standing Committees and Select Committees. We should try to resolve all such matters and see how things work out. If hon. Members feel that the new hours have not worked and there is an overwhelming desire to reverse the change, we will have a chance to do so when we have had time to judge the experience.