HC Deb 18 December 2002 vol 396 cc909-73
The Temporary Chairman (Mr. John Butterfill)

I now have to announce the result of a Division deferred from a previous day.

On the motion on section 5 of the European Communities (Amendment) Act 1993, the Ayes were 275, the Noes were 153, so the motion was agreed to.

[The Division List is published at the end of today's debate.]

Mr. Key

If I have understood the Government's motive correctly in introducing this Bill and their regional government proposals to the House, it is to improve the machinery of Government and the delivery of services, to bring them closer to the people, and to improve accountability. I agree with the amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), and I shall seek to explain why I fear that the Government's ambitions will be frustrated by local people who will be able to cast their votes.

The game was given away by the publication earlier this month by the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister of the handbook on the soundings exercise, paragraph 24 of which points out: The Secretary of State will be taking account of a very wide range of views, information and evidence in reaching his decision. It is not practicable to set a 'pass mark' above which a region would automatically hold a referendum and below which it automatically would not. In some cases the Secretary of State may have to balance several factors. Ultimately, these must be matters for the Secretary of State's judgement. Paragraph 25 states: These soundings are initially to inform the Secretary of State's decision". It does not therefore really matter whether people vote yes or no—the Secretary of State will make up his mind anyway depending on factors that he will not tell us about. That is one of my real problems with the Bill.

I do not believe that the Bill is a European Union conspiracy, as the United Kingdom Independence party believes—it recently held demonstrations at the southwest constitutional convention and told us that we were quislings for even daring to discuss the issue, even though some of us are opposed to the concept. Nor do I think that the cuddly image of accountability will work in the future. The real argument is about whether we are addressing a democratic deficit or voter fatigue. I believe that it is voter fatigue. My hon. Friends have already explained clearly that the Bill provides no new policy making, no new powers, no new money—apart from perhaps some more council tax—and no economic and social partners in the future, which we at least have now.

My principal objection, however, is that people will not vote for the proposals in a referendum if they do not identify with the region. That is the basic point. As far as my area is concerned, the south-west region does not exist. The fact is that the economic planning regions of the United Kingdom date back to the second world war when lines were drawn on maps for the better delivery of wartime administration. That grew during the socialist years of the 1960s when the economic planning regions were developed, and we got stuck with those lines on maps—that is all that they ever were.

Cornwall, for example, could certainly have its own identity in relation to a regional assembly, as it has a very real identity. In Salisbury, my part of the world, we do not consider ourselves to have very much in common with Gloucester or the Isles of Scilly, because we are Wessex, and we always have been. Bristol is a city state, and Gloucestershire is in the west midlands as far as I am concerned.

Andrew George

Does the hon. Gentleman not accept that the Tory amendment in relation to new clause 3 simply proposes to replace sanitised, bureaucratic, convenient regions with standardised regions of a different nature?

Mr. Key

Let us discuss that when we debate new clause 3. I promised to be brief so that the Minister can wind up, but it was a perfectly reasonable point.

Unless there is an identifiable region that has legitimacy, the proposal will not work and people will not vote for it. It should not be imposed on them. The counties have legitimacy because they represent the geography, geology, dialect, buildings, architecture, customs and practice, heritage and traditions of a distinct part of our nation. Local government is built on the rock of national identity. In Wiltshire, we call ourselves moonrakers, because of particular events in our history. All that still means something to people today.

I know that modern culture homogenises our nation and that television, in particular, homogenises the western world. However, most of us are busy seeking roots, particularly when the going gets tough and things go wrong. The Government are making a grave mistake in suggesting that we should be forced into a completely phoney and meaningless local government system. The south-west region is a line drawn on a map. Regional government will simply be a castle in the sand that will be swept away by the tide of history.

Several hon. Members


Mr. Streeter

On a point of order, Mr. Butterfill. Can you advise me as a Back Bencher on how I might proceed? Several Members on both sides of the Chamber rose to speak, and I want to make what I believe to be important points about this group of amendments. However, because of the timetable motion from which we are suffering, I will not be able to make those points. How can I challenge legislation introduced by the Government when they show such contempt for Parliament?

The Temporary Chairman (Mr. John Butterfill)

As the hon. Gentleman knows, this is not a matter for me. The orders of the House clearly prescribe the timetable for this Bill, and I am obliged to conform to them.

Mr. Raynsford

We have had an interesting debate around a diverse range of amendments. Many separate issues have come up, including the definition of boundaries, the powers of elected regional assemblies, the reorganisation of local government, the principle of devolution, the extent to which people have absolute clarity when they come to vote in referendums and the importance of choice. I will try to tackle each of those issues while rightly focusing on the amendments before us.

I will start with amendment No. 46, which is the most substantive of the Opposition's amendments. It would insert a new subsection (3) in clause 1, replacing subsections (3) to (8). The new subsection 3(a) would refer to the procedure for determining regional boundaries. It would require that the review of boundaries be undertaken before any order for a referendum could be made. The regions, for the purposes of the Bill, would no longer be those specified in schedule 1 to the Regional Development Agencies Act 1998. Rather a region would become one created by order under new clause 3, but the apparent intention is to exclude Greater London because clause 26 would be retained in the Bill.

That obviously creates a problem for the Opposition. They are arguing for consistency between the number of people in each of the regions. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) made a strong point of that in his speech after conceding that the north-east probably was a natural region with a sense of identity and that it probably had an aspiration for regional devolution. If that is so, I ask him how he would achieve the numerical parity that he seeks—let us note that the population of the north-east is 2.5 million whereas that of London is 7.1 million—without a revision of the London boundaries.

Mr. Hammond


Mr. Raynsford

I am pleased that the hon. Gentleman is going to respond to that point.

Mr. Hammond

I will not address the London issue but, as the Minister knows, new clause 3 says that the commission would have regard to the desirability of the regions being approximately equal. It would also have regard to the need to reflect identities and interests. As we recognised in Standing Committee, there are tensions and there will not be an easy solution, but both factors must be taken into account.

Mr. Raynsford

I am glad that the hon. Gentleman is moving away from the preoccupation with numerical parity. That is the argument that he pushed in Standing Committee and in this debate. When he was challenged on that point by Liberal Democrat Members, he stuck firmly to that line. However, I am glad that wisdom is beginning to prevail and that he recognises that regional identity will involve regions of a very different size. One cannot have a one-size-fits-all simple arithmetic formula.

Andrew George

The Minister accepts that one size does not fit all. As he will acknowledge, one region has expressed a greater desire for a regional assembly in the responses that he has received to the consultation exercise. That region is Cornwall, so why have the Government set their face against an assembly for Cornwall? He is denying an assembly to the one region that wants it.

Mr. Raynsford

The hon. Gentleman has not yet persuaded those on the Liberal Democrat Front Bench to agree that Cornwall is a viable region. His party's spokesman was cautious and guarded on that point when I specifically asked him the question. We have debated the issue with the hon. Gentleman and I have much respect and understanding for the aspirations of the people of Cornwall and for their cultural identity. As he knows, I have recently agreed to recognise the Cornish language, and that is one part of the process. However, we believe that Cornwall is too small an area to be viable as a region with regional powers. That takes us straight to the fundamental point that regions have different functions to counties and districts, which are the traditional local government structures that can best address local issues. The hon. Gentleman may not agree with me, but that is the Government's view.

A key aim of elected regional assemblies is to bring under democratic control the work of existing regional bodies. Who would believe from what we heard from the Conservative Opposition that they set up the existing regional structures—the Government offices for the regions—a decade ago and that they are perfectly happy for them to continue? The Government offices are unaccountable and unresponsive to local opinion. They simply answer to Ministers here in Westminster. That is the Conservatives' position; they are opposed to devolution.

Mr. Hammond

Will the right hon. Gentleman give way?

Mr. Raynsford

No, I have very little time. I have given way twice already, so I must press ahead.

The Conservatives oppose devolution and giving people in the English regions the opportunity to govern their own affairs. That is the main charge that I lay against the Conservative Opposition. Our aim is that regional assemblies should be strategic. We want to ensure that the spatial and demographic size of the regions is sufficient to enable them adequately to perform such a role.

The provisions of amendment No. 46 would mean that the Act setting out the powers and functions of elected regional assemblies would have to be in place before a referendum could take place. I hear the argument about clarity and about the importance of people being aware of what they are voting for before they vote in a referendum. We agree entirely on that. That is why we are holding the structural review of local government in those regions where there is an interest. That review will be decided and the Government will make their decision as to whether to carry it forward before people vote in a referendum.

The right hon. Member for Charnwood (Mr. Dorrell) made great play of this issue. He described the process slightly pejoratively as the boundary committee doing calculations on the back of an envelope. It will not be like that. He was a senior Minister in the Government who introduced the 1992 legislation that established the principle of structural reviews, so he will know that they examine the structure of local government and not just the boundaries. The reviews will have a responsibility to produce a wholly unitary structure, determining exactly how the responsibilities that he described will be discharged. That information will be available to people in the regions before they vote, as will a statement from the Government, based on our White Paper, setting out what powers the elected regional assembly would have.

The right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon (Mr. Curry) said that the whole process was worthless because it contained no powers. He was a former housing Minister, so he will be aware of the housing capital allocations made to registered social landlords and local authorities. Those powers will rest with the elected regional assemblies. Is that worthless? The right hon. Gentleman very much underestimates the measure's significance.

Mr. Clelland

My right hon. Friend mentioned the powers. He will recall that I asked my right hon. Friend the Deputy Prime Minister a few weeks ago about the suitability of a draft Bill for the regional government legislation. Labour Members have made that point twice in the debate. Does he not think that, in view of the new systems of examining legislation, a draft Bill would be appropriate in this case?

7.30 pm
Mr. Raynsford

We said that that is not ruled out and we will certainly consider it. Indeed, it may be one way to provide the extra clarity that some hon. Members want. Clarification will, of course, be provided in the White Paper, the boundary committee's structural review and the Government's statement before electors vote. It is possible that we will also choose to adopt a Bill that receives pre-legislative scrutiny.

Mr. Dorrell

The Minister clearly has sympathy for the proposition put by the hon. Member for Tyne Bridge (Mr. Clelland). Will he consider that, with a view to making such a commitment, and give the House a firm decision on Report?

Mr. Raynsford

We are prepared to consider that, but I do not want to be committed to a timetable. As a former senior member of a Government, the right hon. Gentleman knows about the constraint of legislative programmes.

Mr. Dorrell


Mr. Raynsford

No, I will not give way. I have little time left.

Amendment No. 46(3)(c) states that the Secretary of State would have to be satisfied that there is substantial support from the business community before holding a referendum. The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge made a specious argument about why business was not represented. People might not necessarily live within the local authority from which they run a business, but I do not think that many of them will not live in the same region as their business. So they will be entitled to vote and will have every opportunity to express their view.

We want business to engage with elected regional assemblies. We said that in the White Paper and have specifically consulted on ways in which stakeholders can become involved in the work of the elected regional assemblies. The hon. Gentleman prayed in aid the CBI this evening, but he was much less enthusiastic about it in Committee when he said: The CBI is looking at these matters from the narrow perspective of business … cannot be a conclusive perspective in constitutional matters."—[Official Report, Standing Committee A, 3 December 2002; c. 30.] That was his view a fortnight ago and I am surprised that he is taking a totally different approach today. Perhaps that is indicative of the Conservative party, however. Consistency is not one of its great virtues at the moment.

The Liberal Democrats tabled amendments Nos. 34, 35 and 36, which are consistent with their overall approach to have intensive consultation, reviews, discussions and talking shops—in fact, anything but action. I am afraid that the consequences of those amendments would be to delay the process of establishing elected regional assemblies to which they say they are committed. That would be a complete nonsense because we would have a protracted period of debate and discussion with no action. We have no hesitation in urging the House not to support those amendments.

Amendment No. 24 would replace the condition in clause 1(4) requiring the Secretary of State to consider the level of interest in holding a referendum with something entirely different. Instead, it would require the Secretary of State to conclude on the basis of the evidence available that it is probable that at least twenty-five per cent. of the persons eligible to vote in a referendum … would vote in favour of an elected regional assembly". But that would mean the Secretary of State looking into a crystal ball and predicting the outcome of a referendum. It is a pretty novel approach to the democratic process. It is also totally impractical because people in the region may be interested in a referendum, but may not have formed or expressed a view. The ballot is secret. It would be wrong to expect people to express a view on which way they were going to vote in order to inform the Secretary of State. It is a curious and perverse proposal, and it is not at all practicable. It is our desire to encourage as many people as possible to vote so that referendums reflect the real view of people in a region. Clause 7 enables the Electoral Commission to do what it thinks necessary to encourage voting.

Amendments Nos. 9 and 10 are technical. I suspect that the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge will not regard them as crucial, so I shall concentrate on other issues raised. The right hon. Member for Skipton and Ripon asked why North Yorkshire should not have two tiers of local government in addition to a regional tier of government, but if we are introducing a tier of regional government, two tiers of local government below it are too many. We need rationalisation to ensure that there is clarity for the electorate and to avoid the proliferation of bureaucracy. I could understand that approach from the Liberal Democrats, who are only too happy to have a proliferation of different tiers of government, but I am surprised at the right hon. Gentleman. He supported unitary authorities in the 1990s, but he is now singing from a different hymn sheet.

We believe that every region should have a choice. It should be free to determine its future and way forward. That is why we have introduced the proposals, which are right and democratic. I commend the clause to the Committee and urge it to reject the amendments.

Mr. Hammond

The Minister failed to respond to our concerns. He said that he did not have time, but whose fault is that? The Government could have allowed us two days on the Floor of the House. I urge my right hon. and hon. Friends to support me in pressing the amendments to a Division.

It being two and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings in Committee, THE TEMPORARY CHAIRMAN, put forthwith the Question already proposed from the Chair, pursuant to Order [this day]

The Committee divided: Ayes 135, Noes 352.

Division No. 35] [7:36 pm
Ainsworth, Peter (E Surrey) Hendry, Charles
Amess, David Hermon, Lady
Arbuthnot, rh James Hoban, Mark (Fareham)
Atkinson, David (Bour'mth E) Hogg, rh Douglas
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) Howarth, Gerald (Aldershot)
Bacon, Richard Hunter, Andrew
Baldry, Tony Jack, rh Michael
Barker, Gregory Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Baron, John (Billericay) Key, Robert (Salisbury)
Beggs, Roy (E Antrim) Kirkbride, Miss Julie
Bellingham, Henry Knight, rh Greg (E Yorkshire)
Blunt, Crispin Laing, Mrs Eleanor
Boswell, Tim Lait, Mrs Jacqui
Bottomley, rh Virginia (SW Surrey) Lansley, Andrew
Letwin, rh Oliver
Brady, Graham Lewis, Dr. Julian (New Forest E)
Brazier, Julian Liddell-Grainger, Ian
Browning, Mrs Angela Lidington, David
Burns, Simon Lilley, rh Peter
Burnside, David Loughton, Tim
Burt, Alistair Luff, Peter (M-Worcs)
Cash, William McIntosh, Miss Anne
Chapman, Sir Sydney (Chipping Barnet) MacKay, rh Andrew
Maclean, rh David
Chope, Christopher McLoughlin, Patrick
Clappison, James Malins, Humfrey
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Maples, John
Collins, Tim Maude, rh Francis
Conway, Derek May, Mrs Theresa
Cormack, Sir Patrick Mitchell, Andrew (Sutton Coldfield)
Curry, rh David
Davies, Quentin (Grantham & Stamford) Moss, Malcolm
Murrison, Dr. Andrew
Davis, rh David (Haltemprice & Howden) O'Brien, Stephen (Eddisbury)
Osborne, George (Tatton)
Djanogly, Jonathan Ottaway, Richard
Donaldson, Jeffrey M. Page, Richard
Dorrell, rh Stephen Paice, James
Duncan Smith, rh Iain Paterson, Owen
Fabricant, Michael Pickles, Eric
Fallon, Michael Prisk, Mark (Hertford)
Field, Mark (Cities of London & Westminster) Redwood, rh John
Robathan, Andrew
Flook, Adrian Robertson, Hugh (Faversham & M-Kent)
Forth, rh Eric
Fox, Dr. Liam Robertson, Laurence (Tewk'b'ry)
Garnier, hon. Edward Roe, Mrs Marion
Gibb, Nick (Bognor Regis) Ruffley, David
Goodman, Paul Selous, Andrew
Gray, James (N Wilts) Shephard, rh Mrs Gillian
Grayling, Chris Shepherd, Richard
Green, Damian (Ashford) Simmonds, Mark
Greenway, John Simpson, Keith (M-Norfolk)
Grieve, Dominic Smyth, Rev. Martin (Belfast S)
Gummer, rh John Spicer, Sir Michael
Hague, rh William Spink, Bob (Castle Point)
Hammond, Philip Spring, Richard
Hawkins, Nick Stanley, rh Sir John
Hayes, John (S Holland) Steen, Anthony
Heald, Oliver Streeter, Gary
Heathcoat-Amory, rh David Swayne, Desmond
Swire, Hugo (E Devon) Watkinson, Angela
Syms, Robert Whittingdale, John
Taylor, John (Solihull) Wiggin, Bill
Taylor, Dr. Richard (Wyre F) Willetts, David
Taylor, Sir Teddy Winterton, Ann (Congleton)
Tredinnick, David Winterton, Sir Nicholas (Macclesfield)
Trend. Michael
Turner, Andrew (Isle of Wight) Yeo, Tim (S Suffolk)
Tyrie, Andrew Young, rh Sir George
Viggers, Peter Tellers for the Ayes:
Walter, Robert Mr. David Wilshire and
Waterson, Nigel Mr. Mark Francois
Abbott, Ms Diane Chaytor, David
Adams, Irene (Paisley N) Chidgey, David
Ainger, Nick Clapham, Michael
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE) Clark, hon. Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands)
Alexander, Douglas
Allan, Richard Clark, Paul (Gillingham)
Allen, Graham Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston)
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen) Clarke, Tony (Northampton S)
Clelland, David
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary Coaker, Vernon
Atherton, Ms Candy Coffey, Ms Ann
Austin, John Cohen, Harry
Bailey, Adrian Coleman, Iain
Banks, Tony Colman, Tony
Barnes, Harry Connarty, Michael
Barrett, John Cooper, Yvette
Barron, rh Kevin Cotter, Brian
Bayley, Hugh Cousins, Jim
Beckett, rh Margaret Cox, Tom (Tooting)
Begg, Miss Anne Crausby, David
Beith, rh A. J. Cruddas, Jon
Bell, Stuart Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Benn, Hilary Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Berry, Roger Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Betts, Clive Dalyell, Tam
Blackman, Liz Darling, rh Alistair
Blears, Ms Hazel Davey, Edward (Kingston)
Blizzard, Bob Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Borrow, David Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington) Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) Dawson, Hilton
Bradshaw, Ben Dean, Mrs Janet
Brake, Tom (Carshalton) Denham, rh John
Breed, Colin Dhanda, Parmjit
Brennan, Kevin Dismore, Andrew
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend) Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Dobson, rh Frank
Brown, Russell (Dumfries) Donohoe, Brian H.
Browne, Desmond Doran, Frank
Bruce, Malcolm Doughty, Sue
Bryant Chris Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Buck, Ms Karen Drown, Ms Julia
Burden, Richard Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Burgon, Colin Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Burnett, John Edwards, Huw
Burnham, Andy Efford, Clive
Burstow, Paul Ellman, Mrs Louise
Byers, rh Stephen Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Cable, Dr. Vincent Etherington, Bill
Caborn, rh Richard Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Cairns, David Fisher, Mark
Calton, Mrs Patsy Fitzpatrick, Jim
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth) Flynn, Paul (Newport W)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) Follett, Barbara
Caplin, Ivor Foster, rh Derek
Carmichael, Alistair Foster, Don (Bath)
Casale, Roger Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg)
Challen, Colin Foulkes, rh George
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) Francis, Dr. Hywel
Gapes, Mike (Ilford S) Levitt, Tom (High Peak)
Gardiner, Barry Lewis, Ivan (Bury S)
George, Andrew (St. Ives) Liddell, rh Mrs Helen
George, rh Bruce (Walsall S) Linton, Martin
Gerrard, Neil Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Gibson, Dr. Ian Love, Andrew
Gidley, Sandra Lucas, Ian (Wrexham)
Gilroy, Linda Lyons, John (Strathkelvin)
Godsiff, Roger McAvoy, Thomas
Goggins, Paul McCabe, Stephen
Green, Matthew (Ludlow) McCafferty, Chris
Griffiths, Jane (Reading E) McCartney, rh Ian
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) McDonagh, Siobhain
Grogan, John MacDonald, Calum
Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale) McDonnell, John
Hall, Patrick (Bedford) McFall, John
Hamilton, David (Midlothian) McGuire, Mrs Anne
Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE) McIsaac, Shona
Hanson, David McKechin, Ann
Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart) Mackinlay, Andrew
Harvey, Nick McNamara, Kevin
Healey, John MacShane, Denis
Heath, David McWilliam, John
Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N) Mahmood, Khalid
Henderson, Ivan (Harwich) Mahon, Mrs Alice
Hendrick, Mark Mallaber, Judy
Hepburn, Stephen Mandelson, rh Peter
Heppell, John Mann, John (Bassetlaw)
Hesford, Stephen Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW)
Hewitt, rh Ms Patricia Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S)
Heyes, David Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston)
Hill, Keith (Streatham)
Hinchliffe, David Marshall, Jim (Leicester S)
Hodge, Margaret Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Holmes, Paul Martlew, Eric
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale) Meale, Alan (Mansfield)
Hoon, rh Geoffrey Merron, Gillian
Hopkins, Kelvin Michael, rh Alun
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E) Miliband, David
Howells, Dr. Kim Miller, Andrew
Hoyle, Lindsay Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby)
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston) Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Hughes, Simon (Southwark N) Moore, Michael
Humble, Mrs Joan Moran, Margaret
Hurst, Alan (Braintree) Morris, rh Estelle
Hutton, rh John Mudie, George
Iddon, Dr. Brian Mullin, Chris
Illsley, Eric Munn, Ms Meg
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate) Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Jenkins, Brian Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
Jones, Helen (Warrington N) O'Hara, Edward
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
Jones, Kevan (N Durham) Olner, Bill
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak) O'Neill, Martin
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S) Öpik, Lembit
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W) Organ, Diana
Kaufman, rh Gerald Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Keen, Ann (Brenfford) Owen, Albert
Keetch, Paul Palmer, Dr. Nick
Khabra, Piara S. Perham, Linda
Kidney, David Picking, Anne
Kilfoyle, Peter Pickthall, Colin
King, Andy (Rugby) Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Kirkwood, Archy Plaskitt, James
Knight, Jim (S Dorset) Pollard, Kerry
Kumar, Dr. Ashok Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Pound, Stephen
Lammy, David Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Laws, David (Yeovil)
Laxton, Bob (Derby N) Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Lazarowicz, Mark Primarolo, rh Dawn
Lepper, David Prosser, Gwyn
Leslie, Christopher Pugh, Dr. John
Purchase, Ken Strang, rh Dr. Gavin
Purnell, James Stringer, Graham
Quin, rh Joyce Stuart, Ms Gisela
Quinn, Lawrie Stunell, Andrew
Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N) Sutcliffe, Gerry
Raynsford, rh Nick Tami, Mark (Alyn)
Reed, Andy (Loughborough) Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury)
Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute) Taylor, David (NW Leics)
Rendel, David Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland) Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W)
Thurso, John
Roche, Mrs Barbara Timms, Stephen
Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) Tipping, Paddy
Roy, Frank (Motherwell) Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire)
Ruane, Chris Tonge, Dr. Jenny
Russell, Bob (Colchester) Touhig, Don (Islwyn)
Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester) Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE)
Salmond, Alex Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown)
Salter, Martin
Sanders, Adrian Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Savidge, Malcolm Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Sawford, Phil Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Sheerman, Barry Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Sheridan, Jim Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Shipley, Ms Debra Vis, Dr. Rudi
Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington) Ward, Claire
Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S) Wareing, Robert N.
Singh, Marsha Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
Skinner, Dennis Watts, David
Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E) Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale) White, Brian
Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Smith, Jacqui (Redditch) Wicks, Malcolm
Smith, John (Glamorgan) Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Smith, Sir Robert (WAb'd'ns & Kincardine) Willis, Phil
Winnick, David
Soley, Clive Woolas, Phil
Southworth, Helen Worthington, Tony
Spellar, rh John Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Squire, Rachel
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Wright, David (Telford)
Steinberg, Gerry Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Stevenson, George Younger-Ross, Richard
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber)
Tellers for the Noes:
Stinchcombe, Paul Joan Ryan and
Stoate, Dr. Howard Derek Twigs

Question accordingly negatived.

Amendment proposed: No. 34, in page 1, line 13, leave out subsection (5).—[Matthew Green.]

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The Committee divided: Ayes 47, Noes 310.

Division No.36 [7:50 pm
Allan, Richard George, Andrew (St. Ives)
Barrett, John Gidley, Sandra
Beggs, Roy (E Antrim) Green, Matthew (Ludlow)
Beith, rh A. J. Harvey, Nick
Breed, Colin Heath, David
Bruce, Malcolm Hermon, Lady
Burnett, John Hogg, rh Douglas
Burnside, David Holmes, Paul
Burstow, Paul Hughes, Simon (Southwark N)
Cable, Dr. Vincent Keetch, Paul
Calton, Mrs Patsy Kirkwood, Archy
Carmichael, Alistair Laws, David (Yeovil)
Cotter, Brian Moore, Michael
Davey, Edward (Kingston) Oaten, Mark (Winchester)
Donaldson, Jeffrey M. Öpik, Lembit
Doughty, Sue Pugh, Dr. John
Foster, Don (Bath) Reid, Alan (Argyll & Bute)
Rendel, David Tyler, Paul (N Cornwall)
Russell, Bob (Colchester) Webb, Steve (Northavon)
Sanders, Adrian Williams, Roger (Brecon)
Smith, Sir Robert (WAb'd'ns & Kincardine) Willis, Phil
Younger-Ross, Richard
Stunell, Andrew
Taylor, Matthew (Truro) Tellers for the Ayes:
Thurso, John Tom Brake and
Tonge, Dr. Jenny Mr. David Chidgey
Abbott, Ms Diane Connarty, Michael
Adams, Irene (Paisley N) Cooper, Yvette
Ainger, Nick Cousins, Jim
Ainsworth, Bob (Cov'try NE) Cox, Tom (Tooting)
Alexander, Douglas Crausby, David
Allen, Graham Cruddas, Jon
Anderson, rh Donald (Swansea E) Cryer, John (Hornchurch)
Anderson, Janet (Rossendale & Darwen) Cunningham, Jim (Coventry S)
Cunningham, Tony (Workington)
Armstrong, rh Ms Hilary Dalyell, Tam
Atherton, Ms Candy Darling, rh Alistair
Austin, John Davey, Valerie (Bristol W)
Bailey, Adrian Davies, rh Denzil (Llanelli)
Banks, Tony Davies, Geraint (Croydon C)
Barnes, Harry Dawson, Hilton
Barron, rh Kevin Dean, Mrs Janet
Bayley, Hugh Denham, rh John
Beckett, rh Margaret Dhanda, Parmjit
Begg, Miss Anne Dismore, Andrew
Bell, Stuart Dobbin, Jim (Heywood)
Benn, Hilary Dobson, rh Frank
Berry, Roger Donohoe, Brian H.
Betts, Clive Doran, Frank
Blackman, Liz Dowd, Jim (Lewisham W)
Blears, Ms Hazel Drown, Ms Julia
Blizzard, Bob Eagle, Angela (Wallasey)
Borrow, David Eagle, Maria (L'pool Garston)
Bradley, rh Keith (Withington) Edwards, Huw
Bradley, Peter (The Wrekin) Efford, Clive
Bradshaw, Ben Ellman, Mrs Louise
Brennan, Kevin Ennis, Jeff (Barnsley E)
Brown, rh Nicholas (Newcastle E Wallsend) Field, rh Frank (Birkenhead)
Fisher, Mark
Brown, Russell (Dumfries) Fitzpatrick, Jim
Browne, Desmond Flynn, Paul (Newport W)
Bryant, Chris Follett, Barbara
Buck, Ms Karen Foster, rh Derek
Burden, Richard Foster, Michael Jabez (Hastings & Rye)
Burgon, Colin
Burnham, Andy Foulkes, rh George
Byers, rh Stephen Francis, Dr. Hywel
Caborn, rh Richard Gapes, Mike (Ilford S)
Cairns, David Gardiner, Barry
Campbell, Alan (Tynemouth) George, rh Bruce (Walsall S)
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) Gerrard, Neil
Caplin, Ivor Gibson, Dr. Ian
Casale, Roger Gilroy, Linda
Cawsey, Ian (Brigg) Godsiff, Roger
Challen, Colin Goggins, Paul
Chapman, Ben (Wirral S) Griffiths, Jane (Reading E)
Chaytor, David Griffiths, Win (Bridgend)
Clapham, Michael Grogan, John
Clark, hon. Dr. Lynda (Edinburgh Pentlands) Hall, Mike (Weaver Vale)
Hall, Patrick (Bedford)
Clark, Paul (Gillingham) Hamilton, David (Midlothian)
Clarke, rh Tom (Coatbridge & Chryston) Hamilton, Fabian (Leeds NE)
Hanson, David
Clarke, Tony (Northampton S) Harris, Tom (Glasgow Cathcart)
Clelland, David Healey, John
Clwyd, Ann (Cynon V) Henderson, Doug (Newcastle N)
Coaker, Vernon Henderson, Ivan (Harwich)
Coffey, Ms Ann Hendrick, Mark
Cohen, Harry Hepburn, Stephen
Coleman, Iain Heppell, John
Colman, Tony Hesford, Stephen
Hewitt rh Ms Patricia Marshall-Andrews, Robert
Heyes, David Martlew, Eric
Hill, Keith (Streatham) Meacher, rh Michael
Hinchliffe, David Meale, Alan (Mansfield)
Hodge, Margaret Merron, Gillian
Hood, Jimmy (Clydesdale) Michael, rh Alun
Hoon, rh Geoffrey Miliband, David
Hopkins, Kelvin Miller, Andrew
Howarth, rh Alan (Newport E) Mitchell, Austin (Great Grimsby)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N & Sefton E) Moffatt, Laura
Mole, Chris
Howells, Dr. Kim Moonie, Dr. Lewis
Hoyle, Lindsay Moran, Margaret
Hughes, Beverley (Stretford & Urmston) Morris, rh Estelle
Mudie, George
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) Mullin, Chris
Humble, Mrs Joan Munn, Ms Meg
Hurst Alan (Braintree) Murphy, Denis (Wansbeck)
Hutton, rh John Murphy, Jim (Eastwood)
Iddon, Dr. Brian Norris, Dan (Wansdyke)
Illsley, Eric O'Hara, Edward
Jackson, Glenda (Hampstead & Highgate) Olner, Bill
O'Neill, Martin
Jenkins, Brian Organ, Diana
Jones, Helen (Warrington N) Osborne, Sandra (Ayr)
Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) Owen, Albert
Jones, Kevan (N Durham) Palmer, Dr. Nick
Jones, Lynne (Selly Oak) Perham, Linda
Jones, Martyn (Clwyd S) Picking, Anne
Joyce, Eric (Falkirk W) Pickthall, Colin
Kaufman, rh Gerald Pike, Peter (Burnley)
Keen, Ann (Brentford) Plaskitt, James
Khabra, Piara S. Pollard, Kerry
Kidney, David Pope, Greg (Hyndburn)
Kilfoyle, Peter Pound, Stephen
King, Andy (Rugby) Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lewisham E)
Knight, Jim (S Dorset)
Kumar, Dr. Ashok Prentice, Gordon (Pendle)
Ladyman, Dr. Stephen Primarolo, rh Dawn
Lammy, David Prosser, Gwyn
Laxton, Bob (Derby N) Purchase, Ken
Lazarowicz, Mark Purnell, James
Lepper, David Quin, rh Joyce
Leslie, Christopher Quinn, Lawrie
Levitt, Tom (High Peak) Rapson, Syd (Portsmouth N)
Lewis, Ivan (Bury S) Raynsford, rh Nick
Liddell, rh Mrs Helen Reed, Andy (Loughborough)
Linton, Martin Robertson, John (Glasgow Anniesland)
Lloyd, Tony (Manchester C)
Love, Andrew Roche, Mrs Barbara
Lucas, Ian (Wrexham) Ross, Ernie (Dundee W)
Lyons, John (Strathkelvin) Roy, Frank (Motherwell)
McAvoy, Thomas Ruane, Chris
McCabe, Stephen Russell, Ms Christine (City of Chester)
McCafferty, Chris
McCartney, rh Ian Salmond, Alex
McDonagh, Siobhain Salter, Martin
MacDonald, Calum Savidge, Malcolm
McDonnell, John Sawford, Phil
McFall, John Sedgemore, Brian
McGuire, Mrs Anne Sheerman, Barry
McIsaac, Shona Sheridan, Jim
McKechin, Ann Shipley, Ms Debra
Mackinlay, Andrew Simon, Siôn (B'ham Erdington)
McNamara, Kevin Simpson, Alan (Nottingham S)
MacShane, Denis Singh, Marsha
McWilliam, John Skinner, Dennis
Mahmood, Khalid Smith, rh Andrew (Oxford E)
Mahon, Mrs Alice Smith, Geraldine (Morecambe & Lunesdale)
Mallaber, Judy
Mann, John (Bassetlaw) Smith, Jacqui (Redditch)
Marris, Rob (Wolverh'ton SW) Smith, John (Glamorgan)
Marsden, Gordon (Blackpool S) Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Marshall, David (Glasgow Shettleston) Soley, Clive
Southworth, Helen
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) Spellar, rh John
Squire, Rachel Turner, Neil (Wigan)
Starkey, Dr. Phyllis Twigg, Stephen (Enfield)
Steinberg, Gerry Tynan, Bill (Hamilton S)
Stevenson, George Vaz, Keith (Leicester E)
Stewart, David (Inverness E & Lochaber) Vis, Dr. Rudi
Ward, Claire
Stinchcombe, Paul Wareing, Robert N.
Stoate, Dr. Howard Watson, Tom (W Bromwich E)
Strang, rh Dr. Gavin Watts, David
Stringer, Graham White, Brian
Stuart, Ms Gisela Whitehead, Dr. Alan
Sutcliffe, Gerry Wicks, Malcolm
Tami, Mark (Alyn) Williams, rh Alan (Swansea W)
Taylor, rh Ann (Dewsbury) Winnick, David
Taylor, David (NW Leics) Woolas, Phil
Thomas, Gareth (Clwyd W) Worthington, Tony
Timms, Stephen Wright, Anthony D. (Gt Yarmouth)
Tipping, Paddy
Todd, Mark (S Derbyshire) Wright, David (Telford)
Touhig, Don (Islwyn) Wright, Tony (Cannock)
Trickett, Jon
Turner, Dennis (Wolverh'ton SE) Tellers for the Noes:
Turner, Dr. Desmond (Brighton Kemptown) Derek Twigg and
Joan Ryan

Question accordingly negatived.

Clause 1 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

  1. Clause 2
    1. cc916-58
    2. REFERENDUM QUESTION 20,702 words, 1 division
  2. Clause 3
    1. cc958-65
    2. ENTITLEMENT To VOTE 2,208 words
  3. Clause 4
    1. cc965-73
    2. REFERENDUM PERIOD 3,715 words
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