§ Mr. HammondI beg to move amendment No. 48, in page 2, line 36, leave out from 'at' to second 'the' in line 37 and insert
'a parliamentary election in any parliamentary constituency, any part of which falls within the region and his address on the electoral register falls within'.
§ The First Deputy Chairman of Ways and Means (Sylvia Heal)With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No. 25, in page 2, line 37, at end insert—
'(1A) Where there is a proposal to reorganise local government, only people living in the relevant local government areas may vote on such a proposal.'.
§ Mr. HammondAmendment No. 48 would amend the franchise for the referendum as it is defined in clause 3. At first glance, the clause might appear unexceptional. Subsection (1) states:
A person is entitled to vote in a referendum held in a region … if on the date of the referendum he is entitled to vote at the election of councillors for any electoral area in the region.In other words, the local government—[Interruption.]
The First Deputy ChairmanOrder. Will Members who are remaining in the Chamber please be quiet while the hon. Gentleman moves the amendment?
§ Mr. HammondThank you, Mrs. Heal.
The franchise that will apply is the local government franchise. However, throughout our deliberations on the Bill thus far, the Minister has told us that elected regional assemblies will not be about the exercise of local government powers sucked up from existing tiers 962 of local government. In fact, he has told us the contrary: regional assemblies will have as their business the exercise of powers—to use the words of the statement in clause 2—
currently carried out mainly by central government bodies".I put it to the Minister, therefore, that it is grossly illogical to use the local government franchise for the referendum on that question when he claims that elected regional assemblies will primarily dispense powers that were previously exercised by central Government.The two franchises are not identical. European Union citizens living in England are entitled to vote in local government elections, and would thus be entitled to vote in the referendum as the Bill is drafted, but not in parliamentary elections. Our amendment proposes that the franchise applicable should be the parliamentary franchise, and that an elector entitled to vote in a particular regional referendum will be any elector who is entitled to vote in
a parliamentary election in any parliamentary constituencyall or part of which is within the region. That allows for the possibility that a parliamentary constituency may fall within two regions. I do not expect that to happen, but it is always possible. The provision is qualified by the requirement that an elector, in order to be eligible to vote in the referendum, should have an address on the electoral register in the region.If the Minister objects to that revision of the franchise, he must say why, given his claims, it is more appropriate to use the local government franchise for the referendum rather than the parliamentary franchise.
If the Minister insists on using the local government franchise, it will tend to support the Opposition's suspicion that the elected regional assemblies will be more about taking powers away from local authorities and about a different way to exercise local powers than any genuine measure of devolution.
§ Mr. LansleyI am entirely following the point that my hon. Friend makes. I wanted to establish why the Government have proceeded in this way, so I read the notes on clauses, as one tends to do, only to find that there are notes on clauses 2 and 4, but none on clause 3. So I cannot even find out where the Government started on this issue.
§ Mr. HammondWe will look to the Minister for further elucidation. My hon. Friend will have discovered, as I have, that it is sometimes unwise to rely too much on the explanatory notes, which tend to tell the reader what the Government want him to think the Bill says, rather than what it actually says on a closer reading. The amendment seems pretty logical, and I look forward to hearing the reason why the Minister will resist it if, indeed, he wants to do so.
§ Matthew GreenI obviously want to speak to amendment No. 25, but before doing so, I shall touch on amendment No. 48, tabled by the Conservatives. We are a little interested in that amendment because we believe—we seek the Minister's clarification on this—that British citizens who live in Germany can vote in that country's regional elections but not its national elections, so the group of people who can vote in local elections will be eligible. We wonder whether the 963 amendment is a bit of anti-Europeanism by the Conservative party. Conservative Members are desperate not to mention Europe these days.
§ Mr. SwayneI can clearly understand the argument for using a local franchise in elections to the assemblies, but we are talking about the determination of a constitutional issue, which is quite properly a matter for the parliamentary franchise. Does the hon. Gentleman not recognise that distinction?
§ Matthew GreenI can see a slight distinction, but the amendment would rule out some European citizens who live in the United Kingdom being able to vote in the referendums, which, after all, are only indicative. Whether those people can vote will depend on the area in which they live. Perhaps I should use the phrase "region of Europe", although I know that Conservative Members will not be keen on it. The Conservatives obviously do not want any other European citizens to be able to vote in the referendums, so we know where they are coming from, even if they will not be so explicit themselves.
I come now to amendment No. 25, which is my main reason for speaking. Under that amendment, where local government reorganisation is proposed so that a two-tier system will be reduced to a unitary structure, only people who live in that area could vote on that proposal. The Minister has said that he will consider our proposal for two questions, although he has not been persuaded by that argument. Under that amendment, if there were two questions, the franchise for the referendum would be restricted to those people who live in that area, thereby solving the problem in the Bill.
We have heard that the north-east may choose to hold a referendum. Under amendment No. 25, the people of Newcastle, who already have unitary government, will be able to vote on whether Northumberland, which currently has a two-tier system, should have unitary government. So we seek to ensure that the decisions on changing local government are taken by the people who are directly affected. Once again, we are telling the Government to trust the people. If they are prepared to do that, they will find that there is greater support for regional government and that they are more likely to win the regional referendums.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (Mr. Christopher Leslie)I believe that the Committee may have made some progress this evening—
§ Mr. Edward DaveyWhen the Minister was not here.
§ Mr. LeslieI have been here, for good or ill, throughout much of the debate today.
The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) said in moving his amendment that one reason why we should use the parliamentary franchise is that powers will be taken from national level, not local level. I think that that was essentially his argument.
§ Mr. HammondI am sure that the Minister would not want to disappoint me. He will know that I said that the 964 Government claim that the purpose of these regional assemblies is to devolve power down from central Government.
§ Mr. LeslieI was so hopeful, but my hopes for the hon. Gentleman have been dashed on the rocks. What a great pity. I was about to welcome his acceptance, at last, of the truth behind our proposals: elected regional assemblies will take powers from Whitehall and from central Government, and not from local government. It is a pity that the Conservatives have not dealt with that.
The hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge knows well why it is best to use the local franchise register in this case. It is not simply a case of quoting precedent, although that is important. The local register was used in the Scotland, Wales and London referendums, and is also the basis for electing Members of those assemblies. We plan to use the register for electing members of regional assemblies, too. A strong argument exists that there should be a common approach for all sub-national referendums and elections. That is an important point.
The Liberal Democrat spokesman also spotted that the local register includes relevant citizens of the European Union who are resident, as well as life peers. Those are the only practical differences from the parliamentary register. What does the Conservative party have against life peers voting in these referendums? Why should not Councillor Lord Peter Smith, the leader of Wigan council and the former chairman of the north-west regional assembly, be entitled to vote for an elected regional assembly? Why should Lord Hanningfield, the Tory leader of Essex county council, be precluded from voting? What do the Conservatives have against those fine upstanding citizens?
In terms of the European Union citizen provisions, I remind the hon. Member for Runnymede and Weybridge that those came into force in 1994 and 1996. Why should the Conservatives now be frightened of using their own provisions? Regional government is sub-national, sub-parliamentary government.
§ Mr. LansleyAs my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond) made clear, the reason is that what we are discussing is not a decision but an advisory referendum to the Government in relation to the exercise of a parliamentary responsibility. Lord Hanningfield, good man that he is, has an opportunity to comment on and decide on this matter in another place. He does not need to have a vote in the referendum to do that.
§ Mr. LeslieI am not quite sure that I follow the hon. Gentleman's logic. I had a feeling that he was slightly warmer towards our European friends and neighbours than some others on the Conservative Benches, and I am most disappointed with that particular argument. These are reciprocal arrangements for sub-national government arrangements, and I do not see why the advisory referendum for elected regional government should be any different.
In respect of amendment No. 25, tabled by the hon. Member for Ludlow (Matthew Green), the argument is familiar, and we have rehearsed it in discussions about 965 clause 2. The Government do not believe that we should have a separate question on local government restructuring, so the amendment would be redundant. In any case, we believe strongly that unitarisation is integral to the creation of elected regional assemblies. It is part of the package in relation to streamlining the system, and it is necessary if a new regional tier of elected government is to come into place. Two tiers of local government below regional assemblies would be one too many. I am surprised that the Liberal Democrats are setting their face against that. No other local government reorganisations have been subject to a vote by people in the areas affected, so at least this referendum is adding the option for people to express their views on the total package proposed. Amendment No. 25 is unnecessary and redundant.
A very strong case exists for using the local franchise register. I urge the House to reject amendment No. 48.
§ Mr. HammondI have listened carefully to what the Minister said, which was not difficult as he did not say very much. My hon. Friend the Member for South Cambridgeshire (Mr. Lansley) made the point concisely that a parliamentary responsibility will be discharged by the Secretary of State on the basis of advice given in a referendum. It is not appropriate that persons who are excluded from voting in a parliamentary election should be entitled to vote in that referendum.
I now come to the great logical flaw in the Minister's position. An EU subject or a peer, for example, cannot vote for a national Government to exercise powers such as the power to appoint the chairman of a regional development agency. If those powers were, by any chance, devolved to an elected regional assembly, the use of the local government franchise would enable those people to participate in electing the body that would exercise the powers. That is completely illogical and gives the lie to the Government's assertion that the bodies are mainly about transferring powers down from central Government. It underscores what the Opposition have always suspected: the bodies will be more akin to overblown local authorities than to devolved centres of power coming down from Westminster and Whitehall.
In view of the timetable arrangements and the fact that a Division would leave us with virtually no time to debate the next group of amendments, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
It being five and a half hours after the commencement of proceedings in Committee, MADAM DEPUTY SPEAKER put forthwith the Questions necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded at that hour.
Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.