APPEALS RELATING TO LOSS OF BENEFIT (Hansard, 24 July 2000)

§ Angela Eagle
I beg to move, That this House agrees with the Lords in the said amendment.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this we may discuss Lords amendments Nos. 28 to 54.

§ Angela Eagle
Clauses 61 to 65 allow payments of certain social security benefits or training allowances to be either reduced or withdrawn when the recipient fails to meet the terms of a probation order, community service order or a combination order. We believe that people's right to support from the state depends on their meeting their responsibilities to society. That principle is fundamental to our reform of welfare. We think it wrong that people who disregard their responsibilities to society and breach sentences for criminal offences given by the courts go on expecting to receive benefit, paid for by the taxpayer, on the same terms as everybody else. We want to ensure that offenders complete their sentences as they should. We also want them to take their responsibilities to turn up to meet their probation officers or attend their community service work placements as seriously as they take their need to turn up to sign on.
Making benefit receipt conditional on compliance with community sentences will help to make it clear how important that compliance is. In the first instance, we propose to pilot that policy in a few different areas of the country to test the procedures necessary and assess the impact on offenders. For the pilots, the period of benefit withdrawal or reduction will be set at four weeks. The sanction will apply to people aged between 18 and 59 who receive income support, jobseeker's allowance or certain training allowances.
That is a benefit sanction, so the Bill as sent to the other place provided for a procedure similar to that which applies in other benefit sanctions, whereby the referral of the offender to court by the probation service is sufficient to trigger benefit loss. If the court found the breach not proven, benefit would be refunded. However, the proposal to impose the benefit sanction before the court had decided whether there had been a breach raised major concerns, and the Bill was amended to ensure that the benefit loss should follow the determination rather than the original referral to the court.
The Government recognise the strength of feeling on that issue and are willing to meet the point. To ensure that the offender is fully aware that the measure relates to conditions of entitlement to benefit and is not another 820 punishment by the court, the Government further amended the Bill in the Lords to provide for the Secretary of State—in the person of the Benefits Agency—to write to the offender as soon as he is referred back to court to inform him that he faces a loss of benefit unless the court finds he has not breached his community order.
By writing to the offender quickly after he has done, or has failed to do, whatever triggered his referral to court by the probation service, we will let the offender know well before the court reaches its decision that, by his actions, he has put his benefit at risk. Therefore, amendment No. 51 would impose an obligation on the Secretary of State to notify the offender at that stage, informing him that he will lose benefit unless the court finds that he has not breached the order.
Amendments Nos. 44, 47, 48, 49 and 53 would put back in the Bill the requirement to provide information at the referral stage while leaving intact similar provisions at the court determination stage. They would require the probation service, or the courts in Scotland, to notify the Secretary of State—in practice, the Benefits Agency—when an information is laid at court and proceedings are commenced. Slightly different arrangements would apply in Scotland, as was the case in the original provisions.
A number of technical amendments would put the Bill back in alignment in the new circumstances. There has also been a slight shift on timing. Amendment No. 39 would correct a drafting error to ensure that hardship payments could be made to members of a jobseeker's allowance joint-claim couple when both were subject to a community sentence sanction. Without the amendment, access to a hardship payment could not be provided if both were sanctioned; it represents purely a drafting change. The amendment raises an issue of Commons privilege. I invite the House to waive privilege and agree with the amendment.
These amendments would tidy up the original provisions and meet concerns that decisions on benefit should be taken not on the basis of an alleged breach, but only after the court had determined whether there has been such a breach. They still provide that rights to benefits are linked to the fulfilment of responsibilities to society. With the Government amendment, they would ensure that offenders understand those links and take their responsibilities seriously. I urge the House to agree with the amendments.

§ Mr. Pickles
We substantially agree with the Government, but we recognise that there have been considerable policy reversals—not least that to which the Minister has just referred. All those points were made in Committee, but the hon. Lady most robustly defended benefit being lost immediately. There is one thing we cannot understand, however. After the amendment was tabled in their lordships' House, the Prime Minister—in response to a series of questions put by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition—went out of his way to attack the very proposals that the Minister has introduced today. Perhaps she will explain.
The Prime Minister, who was a little excited, said: The Tories do not like to talk about the substance of the policy…Let me tell the House also that we have introduced a measure 821 whereby, for breaches of community service orders, benefit is lost. The Opposition oppose that as well…let him— referring to my right hon. Friend— stand at this Dispatch Box…and tell us whether he will back these measures on crime, or whether he will carry on talking about them but doing nothing.—[Official Report, 5 July 2000; Vol. 353, c. 324-5.] The Minister has just proposed a change of policy, but has she spoken to the Prime Minister? Has he told her his thinking? Why have the Government changed their mind on this important issue? After all, it is 24 July; he made those remarks on 5 July. Is the Prime Minister aware of the change? Will the hon. Lady undertake to pass him a note so that when he appears at the Dispatch Box on Wednesday he does not castigate the Opposition for the policy that she has proposed this evening.

§ Mr. Webb
As we moved on to this group of amendments, my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) murmured that consensus was about to evaporate. Although the amendments make a truly dreadful section of the Bill marginally better, we are concerned that we have reached this stage.
The Minister set out the principles on which the clauses that are being amended are based. We will support the amendments, but we wish to register our fundamental disagreement with the Government on the principle behind the clauses.
I shall explain why we take that position. The Government, including the Minister, have said that the right to support from the benefit system is conditional on the fulfilment of responsibilities to society. I invite the Minister to consider the example of someone who is imprisoned for having committed murder, rape or some other terrible crime. The state will continue to feed and clothe him and provide a roof over his head. Yet someone who commits an offence that is not nearly so serious and does not warrant imprisonment—he may breach a community order on two occasions—might be denied food, clothing and shelter. How is that a rational approach?
If someone breaches a community order, at least the amendments require the court to test whether it has been breached. It is alarming that originally the Bill did not require that test. At least the amendments introduce the test. I welcome amendment No. 28, which refers to "reasonable excuse". Some modest safeguards are being built into the Bill, but people may still potentially be deprived effectively of food, clothing and even shelter.
The Government want to push through the clause as amended, without a clear idea of what its effects will be. The Government do not know—[Interruption.] The Minister says from a sedentary position, "That is why it is piloted." There are many instances of benefits sanctions being imposed. Instead of introducing such clauses, the Government should be examining the effects of sanctions that are already in place. My noble Friend Earl Russell has argued consistently that we should not support further sanctions until we are clear of their effects.
We are talking about a client group that has already transgressed some sort of law. Depriving members of it of some means of support could have unwelcome consequences.
822 A deplorable measure has been made marginally better by the amendments. For that reason we shall support them, but we wish to register our strong opposition to the principle that the Minister has enunciated.

§ Angela Eagle
The hon. Gentleman does not astonish me much these days, but I am surprised by his intervention. The answer is for the person involved to comply with the community sentence, and that is in his own hands. By connecting rights and responsibilities, we are saying to the individual, "You must turn up for your community sentence. If you do not, there will be consequences." When someone is imprisoned he is complying with his sentence, unless he escapes.
We are piloting the changes that are set out in the amendments to ascertain whether they work. The proof will be in the pilot. We shall see whether the hon. Gentleman's dire warnings prove to be true or whether we can establish a dialogue and a narrative on rights and responsibilities in the areas with which we are concerned.
The hon. Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. Pickles) needs to be reassured that my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister knows exactly what is going on. The Opposition has broadly agreed with us on these issues. We shall be extremely interested to ascertain whether we can establish an effective narrative on rights and responsibilities.