Engagements (Hansard, 5 July 2000)

§ Q1. Kali Mountford (Colne Valley)
If he will list his official engagements for Wednesday 5 July.

§ The Prime Minister (Mr. Tony Blair)
This morning, I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. I will have further such meetings later today.
Today marks the centenary of the passage of the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act 1900, which established a unique and strong relationship between our countries. I am delighted that we will mark that occasion tomorrow. It testifies to the remarkable and close bonds between our two great countries.

§ Kali Mountford
Does my right hon. Friend recall meeting GPs from the primary care group in my constituency last week? Was he impressed, as I was, by their great success and the real changes that they are now able to achieve for patients as they move towards trust status? Is not the last thing that GPs and their patients need a return to the divisive two-tier system that we inherited from the Tories?

§ The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend is absolutely right. The primary care groups have replaced the vastly discredited two-tier system, but more than that, as a result of the additional money that we are able to get into the health service, both primary care services and acute hospital services will be increased. We now know from the Conservative party that it would take £1 billion out of the national health service. That is why every time the issue turns to substance and policy, the Conservatives have nothing to say.

§ Mr. William Hague (Richmond, Yorks)
I join the Prime Minister in his tribute to Australia and ask him to join me in welcoming to the Palace of Westminster five Australian Prime Ministers, including the current Prime Minister, Mr. Howard. On the centenary of the passing of the Commonwealth of Australia Constitution Act, will he join me in celebrating the close links between Britain and Australia and the sacrifice made by the people of Australia in upholding freedom and democracy in two world wars? Does he share the hope that the ties between our two great countries will be as strong throughout the next hundred years as they have been over the past hundred?

§ The Prime Minister
I am delighted to join in those sentiments. At my meeting with the Australian Prime Minister yesterday, we agreed that we should establish here a proper and fitting war memorial to those American service men and women who lost their lives—[HON. MEMBERS: "Australian!"] Forgive me: Australian service men and women. [Interruption.] Forgive me. Well, there were many good allies in those conflicts.
The important thing at this time, when we look ahead at the next hundred years, is to remember just how much sacrifice was made by those Australians who gave their 323 lives to defend the whole of the civilised world from fascism and dictatorship. We will be delighted to honour them here in this country.

§ Mr. Hague
Australians are straightforward people, so let me ask the Prime Minister a straightforward question. Does he remember announcing a new Government policy last Friday, to a chorus of derision—something that he must be getting used to these days? In what was billed as a major announcement, he said that drunken and violent thugs would be picked up by the police, taken to a cashpoint and asked to pay an on-the-spot fine. Can he tell the House which person in the Government came up with that brilliant idea?

§ The Prime Minister
The essence of the proposal of course is that—[Interruption.] The essence of the proposal is that there should be summary justice for disorderly conduct and that there should be—[Interruption.] I am sorry to disappoint the right hon. Gentleman; he should just listen. There should be on-the-spot fines for those people who engage in disorderly conduct. It is correct that it may be better to do that by fixed penalty notice, but summary justice, on the spot, is the essence of the proposal. Perhaps when the right hon. Gentleman gets to his feet, he will say whether, if we introduce the proposal for summary fixed penalty notices, he will support it.

Hon. Members
Answer!

§ Mr. Hague
If there were a fixed penalty notice for evading the question, the right hon. Gentleman would be bankrupt by now. The shadow Home Secretary has said that we are happy to look at the principle of using more fixed penalty notices, but what we want to know about is last Friday's announcement, copiously leaked to the press as usual, of Blair's shock proposal to stop street violence— which was all about people being taken to a cashpoint and given an on-the-spot fine.
Whose idea was this? It could not have been the Home Office civil servants', because they said that they knew nothing about it. It could not have been the Home Office Ministers', because they called it an "ill judged metaphor". It could not have been the police's idea, because they said it was "ludicrous" and "unworkable". Could it have been anyone in the Labour party? Hands up anyone who thought of it. [Interruption.] The Prime Minister is on his own, again. Who in the Government came up with the obviously fatuous idea of getting drunken criminals to form orderly queues at cashpoints around the country?

§ The Prime Minister
On-the-spot fines—[Interruption.] Let us get the right hon. Gentleman off what he likes to talk about, and get him on to the substance. Was he saying a moment or two ago that if we introduce fixed penalty notices on the spot for disorderly conduct, he will support that?

§ Mr. Hague
Actually, I was asking the Prime Minister a question, to which he does not give the answer. I am happy to give the answer, as I have about fixed penalty notices. I will be happy to give the answers about Government policy in the future, which he will not give 324 at the Dispatch Box today. The truth is that the proposal was yet another gimmick from a Government of gimmicks.
Three years ago, the Prime Minister announced, with another fanfare, the introduction of child curfew orders as another way in which Labour would fight youth crime. Will he tell the House, three years on, how many child curfew orders have been implemented?

§ The Prime Minister
The child curfew orders and the anti-social behaviour orders were part of a Government strategy to deal with unruly behaviour. They are being used, and we want to see them being used more. However, I take it from what the right hon. Gentleman has just said that he will support on-the-spot fines. [Interruption.] The issue for people out there, when there are people drunk in the street, kicking in their gates, and engaging in drunken disorderly conduct, is whether the police will be given the powers that they need.
Yesterday we proposed measures on football hooliganism. Let me again challenge the right hon. Gentleman. Today the House of Lords Conservative party said that it would not support those measures. Will he or will he not back us on disorderly conduct and football hooligans—yes or no?

§ Mr. Hague
We called for the Prime Minister to deal with football hooliganism two years ago. Just because he did nothing and has mismanaged the parliamentary timetable does not mean that he can get legislation through in a matter of hours.
What is the answer to the question that we asked the Prime Minister? It is a nice, easy number. It is probably in his folder, if he had a PIN number to get to it. It is a nice, easy number, the number of child curfew orders implemented: zero. Was that what the right hon. Gentleman meant by zero tolerance when he talked about it at the last election? It is yet another gimmick. With violent crime rising—and his gimmicks have done nothing to address it—would it not be a good idea to make violent criminals serve their sentences? Will the right hon. Gentleman now give the House the figure for the number of people convicted of grievous bodily harm and released early, before their normal parole date, by the Home Secretary?

§ The Prime Minister
As the right hon. Gentleman well knows, that proposal was supported by his party. On football hooliganism, we now know today—[Interruption.] The Tories do not like to talk about the substance of the policy. On football hooliganism, we now know today that the right hon. Gentleman is not prepared to support the measures going through the House of Lords. Let me tell the House also that we have introduced a measure whereby, for breaches of community service orders, benefit is lost. The Opposition oppose that as well. They also oppose the fines on illegal trafficking in illegal immigrants and asylum seekers. As for their record on crime, many people in the country remember that it was under the Conservatives that crime doubled. If the right hon. Gentleman wants to be taken seriously on crime, let him stand at this Dispatch Box—[HON. MEMBERS: "Hear, hear."] Maybe he should give us a few answers to some 325 questions. Let him stand there now and tell us whether he will back these measures on crime, or whether he will carry on talking about them but doing nothing.

§ Mr. Hague
I will stand at the right hon. Gentleman's Dispatch Box and be taken seriously on crime, which he never will. We will support tougher measures on crime going through the House, but we will subject them to proper parliamentary scrutiny, which he has never favoured. The number of people—a figure which, again, he has not given—released early who have committed grievous bodily harm is now 1,654, many of whom have offended again. Three years into the Government—[Interruption.]

§ Madam Speaker
Order. I hear what the hon. Member for Halton (Mr. Twigg) is calling out. I shall have to move him out of the Chamber if he continues.

§ Mr. Hague
Three years into the Government, is it not the truth that they are failing to deal with the real issues, such as crime, because they are so busy with leak and counter-leak, spin and counter-spin, and doing each other down in the press. Is not the fact that the Prime Minister spends his time clutching for another empty headline with a cashpoint announcement instead of getting a grip on his divided and shambolic Government a sure sign of weakness and failure of leadership?

§ The Prime Minister
Let us deal with "spin rather than substance". I notice that the right hon. Gentleman did not raise today the record number of jobs created by inward investment in this country; the 1 million extra jobs since the election—not spin, substance; the new hospital building programme—not spin, substance; the building work for up to 11,000 schools—not spin, but substance; today's £1 billion programme for science—not spin, but substance; the minimum wage; paid holidays; the right to union representation; the new deal; the working families tax credit—all substance. The truth is, when the debate turns to policy, we will see who is standing.

Hon. Members
More!

§ Mr. Michael Fabricant (Lichfield)
Resign.

§ Madam Speaker
Order. Any more of that and the hon. Gentleman will be out.

§ Q2. Mrs. Maria Fyfe (Glasgow, Maryhill)
One of the things that I hope that my right hon. Friend will do today is have a look at the petition with 70,000 signatures gathered in Glasgow in support of Govan shipyard. There are voices this morning saying that the future for our yard is bleak. Does my right hon. Friend have any encouraging things to say to the men and women in that yard who have campaigned so hard and so long to save its future?

§ The Prime Minister
My hon. Friend will recognise that the Ministry of Defence receives the bids tomorrow and will consider them carefully. Other United Kingdom warship orders are coming up, and Scotland can expect to benefit from them, too. For example, it is probable that a type 45 destroyer, first of class, will be assembled and launched on the Clyde. In addition, the Government have 326 spent about £500 million on defence equipment from contractors based in Scotland. We must obviously make decisions in the best interests of our shipbuilding industry, but we are well aware of the anxieties of those who work in the Govan yard.

§ Mr. Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye and Inverness, West)
While I acknowledge the welcome level of investment that has been recorded today, what does the Prime Minister make of the opinion that was expressed to him and the Foreign Office by our ambassador in Japan? The ambassador said that there is a perception among Japanese business men that, unless this country gets firmly on track for membership of the euro, additional future investment will entail unnecessary costs and doubts. Does the Prime Minister agree with his ambassador's analysis?

§ The Prime Minister
Before I answer that question, I shall refer to a question that the right hon. Gentleman asked last week and to which I promised an answer. He asked whether the health action zone money had been cut. I have examined the matter carefully. Five different streams of money go to health action zones. The right hon. Gentleman was right to say that one had been reduced. However, the other four have been substantially increased, and there will be an overall increase of 37 per cent. in health action zone funding.
On inward investment, it is extremely important to hold to the policy that we have set out. It is, in principle, for Britain to be part of a successful single currency, while recognising that, in practice, the economic conditions must be fulfilled. That remains our policy. To rule out the euro altogether would be absolutely disastrous for British jobs and inward investment, leading to an immediate loss of jobs and investment. That is why Conservative policy is the surest way I know to lose jobs.

§ Mr. Kennedy
On health action zones, the Prime Minister is right about the 37 per cent., but the point of last week's question was that the 37 per cent. increase is a decrease when compared with what the Treasury proposed initially. It will still result in cuts. That is the heart of the matter.
On the euro, Richard Branson wrote this morning: outside the Euro…we will be much poorer both as a nation and as individuals. Did the Prime Minister notice that? Does he disagree with Mr. Branson as well as his ambassador in Japan? Is he not in danger of allowing his "prepare and decide" policy to slip into the "wait and see" policy that had such disastrous consequences for his predecessor?

§ The Prime Minister
No, because it is a "prepare and decide" policy. Depending on the economic conditions, membership of a successful single currency would be good for British jobs, mortgages and industry. However, membership must depend on the economic tests for the simple reason that if the conditions were not met, membership would not have the beneficial impact that we have discussed. The majority of those who are in favour of our joining the euro in principle recognise that joining now would not be right. It is therefore important to keep to the "prepare and decide" policy, the "in principle" commitment and the tests. We must do that because it is 327 best for British people and British industry. Adopting the crazy policy of the Conservative party would prove the fastest way of removing inward investment from this country.

§ Q3. Mr. David Kidney (Stafford)
Now that the Home Office accepts that it costs more to police rural areas, can my right hon. Friend assure the residents of rural Staffordshire that Staffordshire police will get more money? Does my right hon. Friend agree that wherever people live in Britain, they should be entitled to a police service that is consistently good?

§ The Prime Minister
I note that my hon. Friend's force will get an additional 83 officers from the 5,000 extra national recruits in the next two years. I also note that recorded crime has fallen in my hon. Friend's area by 3.3 per cent. The comprehensive spending review is coming up shortly. The extra resources that we are able to invest in the police show the importance that the Government attach to investing in our essential public services—schools, hospitals, law and order and transport. All those investments would be put at risk by the Conservative party's policy, which would mean that, whatever the economic circumstances, tax cuts always come first. When we undertake the comprehensive spending review, the choice will be simple: it will be between investment in the future and a stable economy on one side and an unstable economy and cuts in investment on the other.

§ Q4. Mr. William Thompson (West Tyrone)
Is the Prime Minister satisfied that the illegal arms in the Provisional IRA dumps recently inspected by the two international inspectors are now secure and unavailable for use? When will they be put beyond use on a permanent basis, as required by statute, and when will the arrangements be made to deal with the remaining dumps?

§ The Prime Minister
It is important that this was a confidence-building measure. It is not the end of the decommissioning process, as I said on the day the measure was announced. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will welcome the fact that we have a chance in Northern Ireland, with an inclusive Executive now and with a Government who are able to represent all parts of the community, to take the process forward. We know that the confidence-building measure is not the full decommissioning that we need. However, it is a significant step along the way to a more peaceful future for people in Northern Ireland. I believe that the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland and in the whole of the United Kingdom will welcome it.

§ Dr. Brian Iddon (Bolton, South-East)
Last Friday, my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health announced an allocation of £658,000 for the Royal Bolton hospital to build a dedicated eye operating theatre. That is in addition to a doubling, under the Government, of intensive care beds and a significant increase in capacity of the accident and emergency department. My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has been invited to Bolton to open one or all of these facilities. May I say on my 60th birthday what a wonderful present it would be if he accepted the invitation? I promise to pay for the plaque.

§ The Prime Minister
That does not seem to be an offer that I can refuse. I am delighted that that investment is going into my hon. Friend's constituency. Every accident and emergency department throughout the country that needs it is being refurbished. In addition, there is the largest hospital-building programme since the war. [Interruption.] Before the Tories start shouting out, I might add that when we came to office not one hospital was being built under their programme.
That is the substance, and the difference. We are making an investment in the national health service. The Leader of the Opposition's economic policy means that he would have to cut that investment. Over the past two weeks we have not yet had an answer to explain how the Tories can spend an extra £1 billion on private medical insurance and still keep to the spending plans that we have set out.

§ Q5. Mr. Nigel Evans (Ribble Valley)
Labour Governments are famous for soaking the rich, but with exorbitant petrol taxes the Government are guilty of milking the poor. The car is not a luxury in rural constituencies such as Ribble Valley; it is a necessity. The Prime Minister tells us that the tax is all being earmarked for public services. However, there is a VAT element on higher petrol prices that has given the Chancellor of the Exchequer a windfall VAT tax. Why cannot that tax now be returned to the motorist? When will the Prime Minister stop caning the motorist?

§ The Prime Minister
I remind the hon. Gentleman that it was the Government he supported who introduced the fuel duty escalator. In the past year, less than 2p of the 18p per litre rise in the price of petrol has been fuel duty. The hon. Gentleman is an Opposition Front-Bench spokesman, is he not? When the Leader of the Opposition was asked another substance question—another policy question—about whether he would take off any of the petrol duty, he said that he would not because We have to be very careful about matters of taxation. Conservatives can go round the country telling people how they support the campaign on petrol duty, but the truth is that they are not prepared to make one commitment on it.
It is true that there was a fuel duty escalator, and in the first two years that increased the price of petrol. We did it for the reasons that I have explained, to get rid of the huge deficit that we inherited from the Conservatives. In the past year, however, the increased price has been the result of rises in the price of oil. Until the Leader of the Opposition is prepared to put his party's policies in order, we will take no lessons from him about these matters.

§ Ms Helen Southworth (Warrington, South)
Will the Prime Minister join me in welcoming the £1 billion investment in science that was announced today, a radical improvement for our national science base which was reduced to impoverishment under the Tories? Further, is he aware that north-west senior scientists, academics, politicians and industrialists are meeting this Friday in Manchester to put, in partnership, the north-west right at the front of the biotech revolution? Will he take a personal interest in the North-West Science and Daresbury 329 taskforce to ensure that we get the continued new investment in our north-west science base which our excellence merits?

§ The Prime Minister
That is right. I gather that the principal of the university of Manchester has welcomed today's announcement. It is a major investment in science in this country. We do it to ensure not merely that we are educating our people properly, but that we can carry on being the number one place to do business in the whole of Europe. I quote from what the US consultants said just a few weeks ago when asked to look into this: The UK rose to 2nd place in the worldwide index as a destination of choice for foreign investors. They say that the continued pro-business stance of the Blair Government…all underlie this favourable British market position. If we carry on running a stable economy and then make the investment in science and education, we have the best chance of a prosperous and successful future for our people; but if we go back to the days of unstable economics, back to the days of deficit financing, and if we turn our backs on Europe, or cut investment, then jobs and prosperity go—again, a substance question.

§ Q6. Mr. Simon Burns (West Chelmsford)
As a precaution, may I ask the Prime Minister if he would be kind enough to answer the specific question that I am about to ask, rather than the question that he hopes I am going to ask? Is he aware that, today in mid-Essex—I am not interested in the rest of the country—1,600 more people are on a hospital waiting list than on 2 May 1997? Can he explain to my constituents and to me why, in mid-Essex, there has not been a single day since 2 May 1997 when hospital waiting lists have been lower than when the Conservative Government left office?

§ The Prime Minister
I will not respond to the hon. Gentleman about the detail of his own constituency because I do not know it, but I will make sure that I get the response. However, if we are to reduce hospital waiting lists—of course, the in-patient lists have come down nationally by 100,000—we have to make an investment in more nurses, doctors and facilities in the health service. [Interruption.] It is no use the hon. Gentleman shaking his head: he is against that extra investment in the health service. He is going to go into the next election—[Interruption.] Oh, yes. I am afraid that at some point Conservative Members are going to have to answer a few questions on policy. If they go into the next election holding to their tax guarantee, then, as my predecessor, the former leader of the hon. Gentleman's party, said, the only way that their tax policy can be made to add up is swingeing cuts in education and health. That 330 is the fact; so although there are people in his area entitled to ask for more money in mid-Essex to cure the waiting list problem, he is not one of them.

§ Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Inverclyde)
The earlier noise in here must have made our Australian visitors feel quite at home.
On the question of the programme for the intergovernmental conference, may I ask the Prime Minister if, when he last met the leaders of Austria, Finland, the Irish Republic and Sweden, they discussed the European Union's rapid reaction force? If they did hold such a discussion, did he receive assurances from the leaders of those neutral countries that they would support the setting up of such a force?

§ The Prime Minister
Yes, we did discuss that and they are supportive of setting up the rapid reaction force. Of course, we have to be very careful of the sensitivities of non-NATO EU member countries, but the whole purpose of the force is to allow us that greater facility to deal with situations that may arise on the doorstep of the European Union, where it is important that European Union member countries co-operate. In defence policy, the work that has been done by the Government in co-operation with other Governments is a classic example of how a positive, constructive attitude in Europe yields the best results for Europe and for the country.

§ Q7. Mr. David Lidington (Aylesbury)
So that the Bill on football hooliganism can receive swift passage and proper parliamentary scrutiny, will the Prime Minister agree today to drop from his legislative programme his Bill to restrict trial by jury?

§ The Prime Minister
No, I certainly will not. Both those matters go to the heart of the law and order debate on policy. The mode of trial legislation was recommended by a royal commission, it is supported by the Lord Chief Justice, it will hugely increase the efficiency of the criminal justice system and we will be able to use some of the money thus saved in front-line policing.
Two weeks ago the right hon. Member for Richmond, Yorks (Mr. Hague) demanded that we introduce emergency legislation on football hooligans and said that he would give it fair passage. We now know what he means by parliamentary scrutiny of every line, dot and comma. Having called for that emergency legislation, he is not prepared to bring people in the House of Lords into line to get it through. What the country should know is that he is standing in the way of policy measures on football hooligans, community service orders—how can he oppose the idea of people having a penalty levied against them if they breach a community service order?—mode of trial, and fines on illegal traffickers. Those measures will deliver decent law and order in this country.