HC Deb 04 November 1999 vol 337 cc471-3
8. Mr. Philip Hammond (Runnymede and Weybridge)

What representations he has received from voluntary organisations in respect of the operation of the national minimum wage. [95829]

The Minister for Competitiveness (Mr. Alan Johnson)

My Department has received a considerable number of representations from voluntary organisations. Where appropriate, they have been passed to the independent Low Pay Commission, which is monitoring the national minimum wage.

Mr. Hammond

During the passage of the national minimum wage legislation, Conservative Members drew attention to some of the potential problems for voluntary organisations and volunteers. The Government rode roughshod over those concerns. Now that the legislation has bedded down and the Government can perhaps afford to be a little less paranoid, will the Minister acknowledge that there is a grey area where volunteering meets employment and that many voluntary organisations are still having difficulties with the legislation as it affects volunteers? Will the Minister ask the Low Pay Commission to conduct a review of the impact of the law on voluntary organisations, volunteers and people with disabilities?

Mr. Johnson

That is a legitimate area of concern. I am pleased that some Conservative Members have moved away from their outright opposition to the minimum wage and are considering some of the problems. The shadow Chancellor, however, said: Scrapping the national minimum wage is absolutely the first thing we would do within five minutes of getting through the door. Far from riding roughshod over the representations that we received, we took them extremely seriously. Indeed, this March, we asked the independent Low Pay Commission to examine the situation, especially with therapeutic workers. We are now asking it to examine the matter again. The Low Pay Commission will consider the national minimum wage as it affects people right across the disability groups.

I want to counter the suggestion that somehow the national minimum wage is not in the interests of the disabled. The Association for Supported Employment said: Disabled workers have gained as much from the introduction of the minimum wage as have non-disabled. The National League for the Blind and Disabled said: The minimum wage will ensure added security for our disabled members in employment. There are areas for concern, but that should not detract from the enormous benefit that the national minimum wage has brought to all people in this country, especially the disabled.

Mr. Christopher Leslie (Shipley)

Does not all the evidence suggest that the minimum wage is a common-sense policy, good for the economy and good for working people? Did my hon. Friend notice that the Leader of the Opposition, speaking to the CBI this week, continued to characterise it as a burden and something that should be scrapped? What does he think the risks would be to ordinary working people if the Conservatives reversed the minimum wage?

Mr. Johnson

My hon. Friend makes an important point; under the previous Government 880,000 workers were paid less than £2.50 an hour. We were pleased to see that the first enforcement order for the national minimum wage was made last week on behalf of Mr. Aldred of Bognor Regis—ironically, he lives in the constituency of the Opposition spokesman, the hon. Member for Bognor Regis and Littlehampton (Mr. Gibb)—who was paid only £1.50 an hour.

I believe that there is a fundamental change in this country. People recognise that for the first time they have basic minimum civilised standards in the workplace, and a political party that tampers with that will do so at its peril. I have always believed that trying to explain social justice to Conservatives—or rather, to Her Majesty's Opposition, as I should call them—is rather like trying to explain origami to a penguin.

Mr. Owen Paterson (North Shropshire)

I think the Minister has misunderstood the question asked by my hon. Friend the Member for Runnymede and Weybridge (Mr. Hammond), which was about people who worked for voluntary organisations such as charities. There is a grey area; for instance, in my constituency people who volunteer to drive in and spend the morning in a charity shop have been receiving a small sum to help to pay for their petrol. There is a perfectly genuine case for an inquiry. When will such an inquiry be set up, and when will we see a result?

Mr. Johnson

We do not believe that there is ambiguity. We made it clear that the definition of whether there is an entitlement to the national minimum wage is whether there is a contract of employment. We do not intend to allow a low-paid ghetto to develop around the voluntary sector. We have excluded voluntary workers from the national minimum wage when they are genuine volunteers in complete control of their time, without a contract of employment, and we do not intend to go further than that.