HC Deb 20 March 1996 vol 274 cc387-96 4.17 pm
The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. Douglas Hogg)

With permission, Madam Speaker, I too would like to make a statement about BSE. In view of the statement that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health just made, the House will wish to know the action that I propose to take to ensure that the risk to the public is minimised.

The additional recommendations just made by the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee that most immediately affect agriculture departments are that carcases from cattle aged over 30 months must be deboned in specially licensed plants supervised by the Meat Hygiene Service and that trimmings be kept out of any food chain; and that the use of mammalian meat and bonemeal in feed for all farm animals be banned.

The committee goes on to state that if these and its other recommendations are carried out, the risk from eating beef is now likely to be extremely small.

The Government have accepted these recommendations, and I will put them into effect as soon as possible. Any further measures that SEAC may recommend will be given the most urgent consideration. Also, and with immediate effect, I have instructed that existing controls in slaughterhouses and other meat plants and in feed mills should be even more vigorously enforced.

I do not believe that this information should damage consumer confidence and thus the beef market. But I should say that support mechanisms exist in the common agricultural policy and the Government will monitor the position closely. I will naturally report developments to the House.

I recognise that there will be public concern, but the Government's chief medical officer advises us that there is no scientific evidence that BSE can be transmitted to man by beef. In fact, he has stated that he will continue to eat beef as part of a varied and balanced diet—a as, indeed, shall I. In view of what I have announced, the Government believe that British beef can be eaten with confidence.

Dr. Gavin Strang (Edinburgh, East)

Will the Minister make all the new information, including all the scientific evidence, available to the House of Commons? We must have complete openness on this issue. Today, we have to learn the important lesson that we must not allow the BSE agent to get into our food. Clearly, it is crucial that animals that display the symptoms of BSE are not slaughtered for food. Is the Minister satisfied with the controls in that regard?

Some animals do not display any symptoms, but they carry the BSE agent. With respect to those animals, what progress is being made on the development of a live test? Can we have an assurance that adequate resources are being made available for this research and all other aspects of research in relation to the food and agricultural implications of BSE and CJD?

The Minister announced a number of measures this afternoon, including deboning the carcases of all beef animals over the age of 30 months. As younger animals have BSE, why has the Minister chosen to debone only the carcases of cattle over the age of 30 months? Last summer, the Minister had to acknowledge that the controls that were in place in our slaughterhouses were not being adequately enforced. What confidence does he have that the new measures and the existing measures will be effectively enforced? Can we be assured that he will assist the Meat Hygiene Service and the State Veterinary Service in the implementation of these vital objectives?

The Minister's announcements have important implications for the agricultural and meat industries. What measures is he considering to cushion the blow to these industries? Finally, I listened carefully to the statement made by the Secretary of State for Health and to the last part of the Minister's statement. As the Minister responsible for our food, what advice is he giving to people about whether they, their children and their grandchildren should be eating beef and beef products?

Mr. Hogg

Of course, we must be open—and that is why my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health and I have come promptly to the House. We learnt of the considered conclusions over the weekend, the recommendations were made earlier this morning and we came here very swiftly. In relation to publication, my right hon. Friend has made it clear that we will be publishing the material in the scientific journals.

With respect to BSE agents getting into the food chain, that is precisely why I put the additional controls in place and why that has been done in the past. There will not be a live test in the foreseeable future—I wish that there were. On the question of adequate research as funded by my Department, I have discussed this with Professor Pattison—the chairman of SEAC—and he is satisfied with the level of MAFF support for research.

On the question of the 30-month cut-off point, that is indeed the recommendation of SEAC. We stand by that recommendation and SEAC had good reasons for making it. On the question of market confidence, in view of what SEAC and the chief medical officer said, I do not believe that there should be a loss of confidence in beef and, as a consequence, no damage to the market.

Sir Archibald Hamilton (Epsom and Ewell)

May I congratulate my right hon. and learned Friend and the Government on the speed with which the two statements have been made following the SEAC recommendation? Does he agree that the comments from the Labour party, both new and old, demonstrate that Labour is certainly not the farmer's friend? Does he accept that the deboning of carcases over 30 months old will hit the dairy industry in particular, as it is normally dairy cows that are slaughtered beyond the 30-month period? Has he considered the impact of that on the price that will be paid for those redundant cows and what help can he offer the dairy industry in particular on the impact of that?

Mr. Hogg

On the first part of my right hon. Friend's question, I shall practise the same self-denying ordinance as my right hon. Friend. On the question of dairy cows, my right hon. Friend is correct in saying that frequently dairy cows over the age of 30 months are processed for beef. However, he will also have noticed that we are not prohibiting the use of dairy cows over the age of 30 months for beef, but merely stipulating that they must be sold in a deboned state—the deboning taking place in plants licensed by the Ministry.

Mr. Paul Tyler (North Cornwall)

May I remind the Minister that in a debate in the House on 13 July last year I specifically asked his colleague, the Minister for Food, whether she was satisfied with the integrity of the scientific advice on which the Government were operating? Will he be more specific this afternoon than the hon. Lady was then in answer to two specific questions? First, I noticed that his statement refers to the risk from eating beef as being extremely small. By contrast, the chief medical officer refers to bovine products. Can the Minister distinguish between the two and what advice is given in each case? Secondly, I noticed his reference to support mechanisms. Is he prepared to assure the House, the country and the industry that he and his Ministry take full responsibility for the consequences of their previous advice, including the financial implications?

Mr. Hogg

I have great confidence in the integrity of the scientific advice that we have received. I have confidence in it now and I have always had confidence in it. It merits our confidence. As for what the chief medical officer said with regard to beef products, I adopt and repeat it.

Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale)

Is not the gist of what we have been told this afternoon that there is no less reason to have confidence in British beef today or tomorrow than there was yesterday? I regret, however, that that is not how the great British press will see it. There is likely to be a calamitous effect on British beef farmers, many of whom have never had a single BSE-affected cow in their herds. Will my right hon. and learned Friend, therefore, reassure the House this afternoon so that we can reassure our farmers tomorrow and this weekend that he will not hesitate to move swiftly to support the market?

Mr. Hogg

The market will fall only if there is a serious lack of confidence in beef. That depends upon the judgment that the public make about the quality and safety of British beef and beef products. That is why my right hon. Friend and I have come promptly to the House to make the two statements that we have made and to tell the House that the best opinion that we have is that beef and beef products can be eaten with confidence. If the public accept that advice, there will be no damage to the market, but, as I made plain in my statement, there are mechanisms within the common agricultural policy that can be brought into play if there is damage.

Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington)

Has the Minister seen a transcript of an interview that the chief veterinary officer, Mr. Keith Meldrum, gave on the "World in Action" programme last November in which he stated that it is possible that as many as 500 animals with BSE may be entering the food chain every week, albeit subject to the removal of specified offal? He said also that tissue other than the specified offal may contain "a low level"—that is a direct quote; I checked the tapes today—of BSE.

We know from interviews conducted during the "World in Action" piece and from footage filmed by secret cameras that animals that were cleared by inspectors at auction markets in Mold and at Beeston in Cheshire were purchased by Granada Television—at its expense—tested by official veterinary officers, and found to contain BSE. We know, on the basis of what we saw and according to the interview transcripts, that the system is not working. How can we sure that the current arrangements will be tightened to work effectively when we have been told repeatedly over the years that the present system is policed properly?

Mr. Hogg

The hon. Gentleman is not fixing on the critical point. I do not dispute the fact that a number of cattle with sub-clinical BSE conditions have got into the slaughterhouse—that is precisely why the SBO controls are in place. If those controls are carried out thoroughly, they will remove the organs that contain the infected material. For that and other reasons, I believe that the British people can consume beef with confidence.

Mr. Bill Walker (North Tayside)

Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that human beings indulge in very few risk-free activities and that that is true of what we eat? It is in the interests of our very good agricultural industry that we disseminate the message that the measures that are being put in place have the same effect as control measures in other areas. For example, buses, trains and aircraft crash, but we have introduced measures to control the transport industry in order to promote public confidence. That is what the Government are doing today.

Mr. Hogg

I am grateful for the support that my hon. Friend has given to the Government's proposals, which are based on the recommendations of the Spongiform Encephalopathy Advisory Committee and the chief medical officer. It is true that few activities are wholly safe. However, according to the advice that we have received and in light of today's announcement, British beef may be eaten with confidence.

Mr. William Ross (East Londonderry)

Does the Minister recall that, in answering a question from me in November, he said that although 160,000 cattle were found to be infected with BSE only 23 could be broadly classed as beef animals? Does that mean that BSE is largely a disease of the milk herd? If that is so, will the Minister follow up the question that my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth) asked in a previous exchange and consider the possibility of a test? Will he examine also the effects of scrapie on the disease, as I believe that there has been one trans-species jump already?

When considering the question of beef imports into the United Kingdom, will the Minister examine closely the cross-border trade between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic? Beef comes both from Northern Ireland through the Republic and from the Republic through Northern Ireland and into the United Kingdom market. If the situation worsens, what steps will the Government take to eliminate the disease once and for all—bearing in mind the fact that that cannot be done cheaply?

Mr. Hogg

The hon. Gentleman is right to talk of 160,000 or so confirmed cases and he is also right to say that the great majority of cases are found in the dairy industry, not in beef herds, although there are some cases in beef herds. The hon. Gentleman asked whether there is any probability of a live test becoming available. I regret that there is not in the near future. I wish that there was, but there is not and I must not hold out any prospect of one.

The hon. Gentleman asked about the relationship of scrapie to the condition of BSE. One of the explanations advanced as to the cause of BSE is scrapie, which is a condition in sheep, being fed into the cattle population in the feed rations. The hon. Gentleman asked an important question about the elimination of BSE from the herd. That is precisely why SEAC has recommended that we should no longer feed, to any farm animals, rations with any mammalian content against the possibility that there is cross-contamination, for example, between pigs and poultry and cattle, either on the farm or in the feed mills.

Sir Hector Monro (Dumfries)

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that, since 1989 when the offal controls were introduced—I welcome the strengthening of those controls today—the risk to the general public has been virtually nil? Does he further agree that MAFF, the Scottish Office and the Welsh Office have acted extremely quickly whenever the scientific advice has required them to do so? Will my right hon. and learned Friend watch the market price very closely, because I fear that there will be a substantial drop in the immediate future?

Mr. Hogg

I am grateful to my right hon. Friend. He has a great knowledge of these matters from his time in Government and otherwise. He is correct that the risk is extremely small and that has now been stated on several occasions. We have always followed the scientific advice and we shall continue to do so. We will indeed watch the market price with care, as I said in my statement.

Mr. Hugh Bayley (York)

My constituent, Mr. Leonard Franklin, who was an abattoir worker, died from Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease three weeks ago. His bereaved partner believes that his work at the abattoir contributed to that. He used to come home with blood on his clothes and cuts on his body, and she feels that there may have been a link. She specifically asked me to ensure that an independent pathologist was present at the post-mortem, because she did not trust that the Government-appointed pathologist would be independent. Does the Minister accept that that shows the degree of scepticism in the public about the Government's action in response to BSE?

Given that yet more butchery operations will be required in abattoirs to remove the risk of infected material entering the food chain, will the Minister say whether additional protection will be provided for abattoir workers, who work with the riskiest parts of carcases?

On a separate point, will the Minister clarify what he said a moment ago? I believed that in his statement he said that livestock feeds made from mammals would be entirely banned. He said later that livestock feeds made from poultry would also be banned. Was that his intention because poultry, obviously, are not mammals?

Mr. Hogg

The case of Mr. Franklin must have caused great distress to the hon. Gentleman and to Mr. Franklin's family. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health has already dealt with the point about working practices and the Health and Safety Executive will consider whether any changes in working practices need to be made.

I hope that the public will not be in any way sceptical. The Government have always come to the House with information, in one way or another, as promptly as needs be. SEAC is a wholly independent, free-standing and respected body. It deserves the confidence of the country, which I hope that it will receive.

I am sorry if I have confused the hon. Gentleman. Let me restate the position on feeds. Cattle rations should not contain any material from ruminant animals. That is not true in respect of pig and poultry rations, which could contain mammalian elements. To avoid the danger of cross-contamination in feed mills or on the farm, in implementing the SEAC recommendations I am proposing to prohibit the presence of mammalian elements in food rations for all farm animals.

Sir Donald Thompson (Calder Valley)

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for coming again promptly to the Dispatch Box in acting on scientific advice, although it is unfortunate that he has had to do so. Can he assure the House that scientific advice, once presented, has never been altered or amended by the Government? Have we ever asked the scientists to alter or amend their advice, once it has been presented? Have recommendations always been acted upon and published?

Mr. Hogg

I particularly value my hon. Friend's support, partly because of his professional experience outside the House and because he was a Minister in my Department. He knows a great deal about the subject. My hon. Friend is entirely right—we have always acted on the advisory committee's advice, and we have never tried to shape that advice. The committee is a freestanding and authoritative body and we listen to what it says. We have always carried out its recommendations.

Mr. Andrew Welsh (Angus, East)

As to support mechanisms, what proposals does the Minister have for the quality end of the beef market, which is BSE-free, if it is faced with general market instability? The Government's handling of the situation has led to the worst of all possible worlds for farmers and consumers. Only the utmost accountability and openness will allow the public to get to the truth of the matter. As the Member of Parliament who represents the Angus part of Aberdeen Angus, I ask the Minister to ensure that consumers know that Scottish quality beef is something in which everybody can have confidence.

Mr. Hogg

I have a feeling that I was eating Angus beef last night, in the House of Commons restaurant. It was extremely good, and I ate it with total confidence. We have to make a judgment, and I hope that the public will accept the judgments of SEAC and the chief medical officer that British beef can be eaten with confidence.

If the public do so, there will be no disquiet in the markets and they will not be damaged. I hope that the public will take the view that my right hon. Friend and I are offering the House.

Mr. Mark Robinson (Somerton and Frome)

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that British beef producers are a highly responsible body? Will he consider taking measures through certification or labelling to demonstrate in shops that beef has been properly treated, on the principles that he outlined today?

Mr. Hogg

I entirely agree with my hon. Friend about the responsibility shown by beef producers. Certification is an important point, but I am not entirely certain at the moment whether it is one for the Government or the industry. That matter should certainly be considered by MAFF or the industry, or by those who act on its behalf.

Mrs. Ray Michie (Argyll and Bute)

I welcome the Secretary of State and the Minister coming to the House today to make their statements. It is right and proper that they did so promptly. We hope that not just cattle herds but breeds such as highland cattle and the famous Luing cattle are free from BSE. There is no record of BSE in the highlands and islands among those particular breeds over the past five years, which is a great endorsement of beef cattle in the area. The latest scientific advice is bound to have a knock-on effect on breeders, particularly in severely disadvantaged and less-favoured areas. I ask the Minister to consider how he can help those breeders. Will he restore hill livestock compensatory allowances to their 1992 levels?

Mr. Hogg

I am grateful for the hon. Lady's kind words. What she said about the breeds from the highlands and islands is very important, and I broadly endorse it. It gives breeders a great marketing advantage, because they are able to sell their beef as having come from herds that have not suffered a case of BSE. I should have thought that that would put them in a premium position.

Mr. Douglas French (Gloucester)

Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that the slaughterhouse rules were originally put in place precisely because he and his predecessors accepted that there might conceivably be a link, however remote, between BSE and CJD? The slaughterhouse rules were strengthened once, and he strengthened them again this afternoon, but will he recognise that it is one thing to put in place a set of rules and another to achieve a high degree of enforcement? The House will be grateful this afternoon that he has emphasised that he will introduce measures to ensure a high degree of enforcement, but will he reassure the House by spelling out in greater detail what those measures will be?

Mr. Hogg

I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The controls have indeed been strengthened on a substantial number of occasions, and much, of course, depends on their implementation. We will do our outmost to ensure that they are fully implemented, which is why, on more than one occasion at the end of last year, I called in the slaughterhouse operators. It was also one of the reasons why SEAC suggested that cattle over the age of 30 months should be sold only in a deboned state, the deboning taking place in premises that are licensed and approved. That is intended to provide additional reassurance against the risk of the other SBO controls not being fully implemented.

Mr. Harry Cohen (Leyton)

Is it true that SEAC considered but ruled out the destruction of the national herd? If it even considered that option, does not that show what a mess the Minister's predecessors made of dealing with this problem?

Mr. Hogg

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health has already dealt with that question. SEAC had a whole range of possibilities open to it. It could have made any recommendation that it thought fit and right.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield)

As I represent Macclesfield in Cheshire, where dairying and beef are of great importance to the rural economy, I congratulate the Government on coming to the House with such responsible expedition this afternoon and on the very constructive decisions that my right hon. Friend has taken.

I eat beef, as does my wife, my two sons, my daughter and our six grandsons. We enjoy it and will continue to do so. Has my right hon. and learned Friend any idea of the additional cost of the proposals and announcements that he has made this afternoon, particularly with reference to the slaughterhouse and abattoir operators? I have a very efficient and modern abattoir in my constituency. It is important that the additional costs are known to the House. Can he give us any information?

Mr. Hogg

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his support. Representing the seat that he does, he knows a great deal about both the dairy industry and the beef industry, and therefore his support is particularly welcome. He is, of course, right to say that there will be an additional cost to the abattoirs and, indeed, elsewhere, largely because of the requirement that cattle over 30 months must be deboned before they can be sold, and that it must take place in licensed and approved premises. There clearly is an additional on-cost there, but I cannot quantify it today, not least because, as my hon. Friend knows, we received the recommendation only earlier this morning and I have not yet had a chance to look at the quantifications.

Mr. Cynog Dafis (Ceredigion and Pembroke, North)

On that last point, will the Minister undertake to quantify the additional costs that might be imposed, and in particular their effect on small and medium-sized abattoirs, which are currently under considerable pressure as a result of the requirement for pre-mortem inspections to be carried out by vets, and other costs that impose a severe strain on that sector and, of course, the additional costs of the Meat Hygiene Service? Will the Government also take steps to minimise the effect on that sector, and to ensure that small and medium-sized abattoirs are not closed?

Mr. Hogg

I understand the importance of what the hon. Gentleman has said. Whenever we consider the impact of regulation we must make an assessment of the compliance cost to the industry, weighed against the benefit to the public, and we shall take that necessary action in this instance. I shall try to reach a view, but I think that the House would want the Government to implement SEAC's recommendations in full, including the recommendation that has the effect to which the hon. Gentleman referred.

Mr. David Harris (St. Ives)

I commend both my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Health and my right hon. and learned Friend the Minister on their responsible approach.

I hope that this will not happen, but if there is a drastic fall in the sale and consumption of beef—at least in the short term—will it not result from the media's sensational treatment of the issue, rather than from a careful reading of the scientific statements issued by the advisory committee and the chief medical officer?

May I urge my right hon. and learned Friend to consider the likely impact of the steps that are now being taken on small abattoirs and processing plants? I fear that those steps may lead to further closures, which would not be in the interests of the rural economy or, indeed, those of animal welfare.

Mr. Hogg

My hon. Friend has made an important point about the rural economy and small abattoirs, and I shall certainly take account of the interests of that sector. As for his first point, I agree with him. I believe that careful consideration of the evidence from SEAC and the chief medical officer that has been placed before the House will reassure the public, and if that is so the market will not be damaged.

Mr. Robert Key (Salisbury)

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware not only that he and I are at one in believing that the safety of food products is paramount, but that that is also the view of the producers—Whatever their size—the veterinary scientists, the workers in the slaughterhouses, the retailers and the distributors? Will he undertake to talk to our right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary to the Treasury not just about the state of the market, but about immediate mechanisms to support it? It is the small markets across rural England, and the small butchers, who are likely to feel the draught. It takes only a small shift in demand from one product to another in a rural butchery for all the products to be unavailable, not just the beef.

Mr. Hogg

It is to my advantage that my right hon. Friend the Chief Secretary was my predecessor in my current office, and is therefore well acquainted with the problems that my hon. Friend has described.

My hon. Friend referred to the paramount importance of food safety. I am grateful to him for giving me an opportunity to say this. People sometimes suggest that the interests of agriculture and farmers are MAFF's overriding concern, and obviously they are of great concern to us; but our paramount duty is to public safety—the safety of the food chain and of British food. That is the paramount duty owed by my Department, and myself as Minister, to the House and the country.