HC Deb 26 April 1996 vol 276 cc669-73
Mr. David Nicholson

I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 1, line 10, at end insert— '( ) an offence under section 1 of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959;'. I shall be brief, as I had intended to speak mainly about my new clause. The amendment seeks to ensure that the legislation relating to flick knives—the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959—should carry powers of arrest similar to those proposed for offensive weapons in the Bill. I hope that I have the support of my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) in extending the Offensive Weapons Bill to include flick knives. They are clearly a major threat to personal safety, so it is desirable that they be included within the scope of the Bill.

Mr Tim Smith (Beaconsfield)

I do not have section 1 of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959 before me, so I ask my hon. Friend to explain what he has in mind. Is not the matter covered by paragraph (1), which refers to an offence of having article with blade or point in public place"? Does that not include flick knives?

Mr. Nicholson

The drafting of the Bill is principally a matter for my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam. This is a belt-and-braces effort to ensure that flick knives are included in the Bill. I made a copy of the relevant section from the 1959 Act.

Mr. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it in order for hon. Members to filibuster without having got their act together? It is clear that, as usual, an attempt is being made to avoid debating important measures that could come before the House later. Conservative Members do not seem to have got their filibuster or papers together.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Michael Morris)

It is clear that a great deal of research material on the subject is available, and presumably the hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson) was trying to find the relevant document.

Mr. Nicholson

I had no intention of filibustering, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I intended to sit down, having made my point. I cannot explain why a reference to flick knives is not in the Bill, but I have the text of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959. Section 1 states: Any person who manufactures, sells or hires or offers for sale on hire or exposes or has in his possession for the purpose of sale or hire, or lends or gives to any other person— (a) any knife which has a blade which opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in or attached to the handle of the knife, sometimes known as a 'flick knife' or 'flick gun'; or (b) any knife which has a blade which is released from the handle or sheath thereof by the force of gravity or the application of centrifugal force and which, when released, is locked in place by means of a button, spring lever, or other device, sometimes known as a 'gravity knife', shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on summary conviction … to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale or to both such imprisonment and fine. Therefore, I want the Bill to refer to such weapons.

Mr. John Greenway (Ryedale)

My understanding is that the Bill's purpose is to ensure that police officers are given the power of search and arrest in a public place. The 1959 Act proscribes flick knives and gravity knives. Most of us are of an age that we can recall that in the 1950s, such weapons were a scourge on our streets. The Criminal Justice Act 1988 included a long list of other items that I can only think are used to cause injury, such as knuckledusters, hand claws, belt buckle knives and push daggers. The 1988 Act extended the 1959 legislation to include all those items.

Section 142 of the 1988 Act allowed magistrates to issue warrants authorising police constables to enter and search premises for flick knives or gravity knives, or for weapons set out in the order made under section 141. If the House accepts the amendment of my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson), as it should, will that put beyond any dispute the ability of a police officer to arrest in the street someone whom he finds in possession of one of the weapons in question? It may be, as my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield (Mr. Smith) said, that the weapons would be caught in the generality of the measure.

Mr. Tim Smith

My hon. Friend said that the Criminal Justice Act 1988 extended the 1959 legislation. If so, and if a flick knife is an article with blade or point", as I believe it is, I cannot see the need for the amendment.

Mr. Greenway

The 1988 Act, in extending the 1959 legislation, included a long list of other items that do not necessarily have a blade or point, such as the weapon sometimes known as a 'telescopic truncheon', being a truncheon which extends automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device and the weapon sometimes known as a 'blowpipe' or 'blow gun'." On the face of it, such weapons would not be caught by the general description of an article with blade or point".

If the Bill's purpose is to put on a proper footing the power of the police to stop, search and arrest in a public place, and given that the 1988 Act allowed magistrates to issue warrants rather than give the power of stop, search and arrest, we ought to a do a belt-and-braces job and make sure that the power of arrest is included. I doubt that the House will have the opportunity to consider the matter again for some considerable time, so I am glad to see so many of my hon. Friends in their places. It is important to get the Bill right, and I hope that my explanation of my understanding of the law will assist the House.

9.45 am
Sir Michael Shersby (Uxbridge)

My hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson) has initiated and advocated an important point, ably supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway). Clause 1 refers to arrest without warrant for carrying offensive weapons, and in speaking to it I must declare that I am the parliamentary adviser to the Police Federation of England and Wales.

Amendment No. 1 would make it clear without doubt that the legislation relating to flick knives will carry a similar power of arrest as proposed in respect of other offensive weapons in the Bill. That sensible provision would be widely welcomed by police forces throughout the country. The amendment does not require lengthy consideration, but it is evident that flick or gravity knives present a problem, and the Bill addresses the dangerous knife culture that has developed in this country. I hope that the House will be disposed to support my hon. Friend's amendment.

Lady Olga Maitland (Sutton and Cheam)

I reject amendment No. 1, but not with any great enthusiasm. The amendment would give the police the power of summary arrest in relation to the offence of manufacturing or selling a flick knife or gravity knife. I sympathise with the spirit behind the amendment, and it is understandable that my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson) wants to be tough on the manufacturing or selling of flick knives or gravity knives. They are vicious and create appalling harm, so why not arrest on the spot persons who peddle, sell or manufacture those weapons? Why not close the loophole? Why not make a belt-and-braces amendment? That all sounds so logical.

Such weapons are invariably smuggled into this country, largely from France—where they are legally obtained over the counter. Even if a seller of such weapons is caught in this country, which I regret is rare, the offence does not qualify for the emergency action of immediate arrest and interview at the police station. Selling is a static activity. It causes no immediate harm, so the offence of selling such weapons is dealt with by a summons. The vendor is easily traceable by virtue of his premises.

The danger comes when a weapon is in the hands of the purchaser and from what he might do when he goes out of the shop into the street. If he is then found carrying a flick knife or gravity knife, which are banned under the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959, he can be arrested on the spot. In any case, there is a flaw in the drafting, in that my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton has limited the scope to gravity knives and flick knives. Why did he not include butterfly knives and the rest of the 14 weapons already banned under section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988?

The amendment would extend the power of summary arrest to the offence under section 1 of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959, which makes it an offence to import, manufacture or sell a flick knife or gravity knife. Most of us have a rough understanding of what a flick knife is—a knife or blade that opens automatically when a button is pushed. A gravity knife is similar, except that the blade is released by the force of gravity and what the 1959 Act describes as the "application of centrifugal force". The offence under section 1 of the 1959 Act is not in the same category as that of carrying an offensive weapon or knife.

First, selling is an absolute offence and it is therefore less difficult to establish whether an offence has been committed. Next, the offence will not normally have been committed in the street, but at a fixed address—the seller's shop. That means that the offender is easily traced, and interviewing can be carried out on his premises. There is no difficulty in keeping tabs on the offender—he is there.

The force of the amendment should be put in the context of the number of recorded convictions. It is very rarely that vendors are found to be selling such weapons. Indeed, there was a total of only five prosecutions in 1994 and one in 1993. In the circumstances, I do not think that it would be appropriate to make the offence arrestable. I therefore reject the amendment.

Mr. Tim Smith

I congratulate my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) on promoting the Bill, which I believe is much needed in the light of recent tragic events of which we are all aware. The heart of her Bill is, of course, clause 1. The important point is that the clause is about the carrying of offensive weapons.

When my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson) first introduced amendment No. 1, I had thought that section 1 of the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959 also referred to the carrying of offensive weapons, and that is why I thought that the amendment might be unnecessary. If all that we were talking about was the carrying of offensive weapons, that would be covered by clause 1 as it stands. My hon. Friend was, as I understand the position, referring only to flick knives and one other kind of dangerous knife.

I now appreciate, in the light of what was said by my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam, that the 1959 Act is about the manufacture and sale of offensive weapons. The amendment would therefore have the effect of widening considerably the remit and the scope of clause 1. I tend to agree with my hon. Friend that that was not really the original object of her Bill, because she seeks to give to the police the power to arrest without warrant, in the street or on school premises, in circumstances in which they have good reason to believe that a weapon might be about to be used immediately. That is a very different proposition from somebody either manufacturing or selling one of those weapons. Serious though that offence is, it does not involve the immediate intention of using the weapon to cause harm. The amendment would extend the scope of clause, and on balance I believe that we should not accept it.

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Timothy Kirkhope)

I shall not detain the House for long, but I wish to deal with a point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Ryedale (Mr. Greenway). I can assure him—and the point has already been made by my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland)—that the carrying of any offensive weapon, including flick knives and gravity knives, which is prohibited by the Restriction of Offensive Weapons Act 1959, will be arrestable under clause 1. The amendment would make the sale or manufacture of such weapons arrestable.

I hope that my hon. Friend the Member for Taunton (Mr. Nicholson), now that he has heard what has been said, will feel able to withdraw the amendment. We all wish to take strong action against knife-related crime, and if there were an operational justification for the amendment, we would need to consider it seriously, but the amendment would widen the provision considerably and we would end up with a measure that was too strong for the circumstances that are envisaged.

Mr. David Nicholson

My hon. Friend the Minister has pointed out that the existing legislation makes the carrying of flick knives an arrestable offence, so the sanctions and provisions of the Bill will apply as much to flick knives as to other offensive weapons. I am grateful to have had the opportunity to air such an important matter and for the assurances from my hon. Friend the Minister. I therefore beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

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