HC Deb 06 November 1995 vol 265 cc604-9 3.58 pm
Madam Speaker

We now come to motion Nos. 1 to 4 on the Order Paper which, for the convenience of the House, will be debated together with the amendments that have been selected.

As a number of right hon. and hon. Members wish to speak, I shall have to limit the speeches of Back Benchers to 10 minutes.

Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Motion No. 1, on the conduct of right hon. and hon. Members, is basically non-controversial, but there is a possible ambiguity in its wording. I have offered a manuscript amendment, but that is not the best way of dealing with the matter. If there is any doubt about the wording of motion No. 1, perhaps sub-paragraphs (i) and (ii) might come after the words "House shall". That would clear away any possible ambiguity.

Madam Speaker

The hon. Gentleman wrote to me earlier and I have responded to do him, but, of course, he can refer to that matter in the debate—I believe that he wants to be called in the debate. He can make suggestions to me if he wishes, but he knows that I have not selected his manuscript amendment.

Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I wonder whether I can raise another matter, because the Deputy Prime Minister is here today. It is a matter that I have raised on the Floor with you on a previous occasion, and I believe that it is important for the House of Commons.

You will recall that, on 24 October, I raised with you a question about the difficulties that are being experienced by hon. Members when tabling questions to the Deputy Prime Minister. I wonder whether you have had time during the recent week and a half to consider Hansard of 16 October, when the Deputy Prime Minister answered questions from hon. Members. You will notice from the questions that were tabled and the answers that were given, and recognising the responsibilities of the Deputy Prime Minister, that he has responsibility for deregulation, the civil service and market testing. Yet he was answering questions on the EEC budget; he was asked a question about social democracy; he answered questions on the obligations of various European states under European treaties; he also answered a question—

Madam Speaker

Order. I have the gist of what the hon. Gentleman is saying. It is not a question, but it is a point of order. I also recall inviting him to write to me about that matter. To the best of my knowledge, and I think that I am correct, I have not yet had a letter from him. I wonder whether the hon. Gentleman, because of the limited time that we have in the debate, will be good enough to come to his point of order, so that I might be helpful.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

I would like you, Madam Speaker, to compare those and other answers that were given by the Deputy Prime Minister with the answers given by his ministerial colleagues, which are specific to questions that are raised by Members of the House of Commons. What I am asking is whether you, in a ruling, will be able to consider the whole matter of what questions are accepted by the Table Office, while recognising that departmental officials can block those questions after they have been tabled by Members.

If a Minister of the Crown is answering more widely than the questions that have been asked and, indeed, is prepared to accept supplementaries that bear very little relationship to the questions that have been tabled, surely we as Members should have the right to table wider questions, particularly as the right hon. Gentleman insists on calling himself the Deputy Prime Minister of this country.

Madam Speaker

I believe that there is some concern about that matter.

Mr. Campbell-Savours

A lot of concern.

Madam Speaker

As the hon. Gentleman says, a lot of concern. If that is the case, it is obviously a matter for the Procedure Committee. The hon. Gentleman did not write to me, as I invited him to do some time ago. He might set out the matter to the Procedure Committee so that it might look at it if he is not satisfied.

Sir Teddy Taylor (Southend, East)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. To assist me and possibly others in determining how to vote, could you say whether, in the event of the official Opposition amendment calling for early disclosure being defeated, you would give consideration to a vote on one of two amendments, one of which is in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, North-East (Mr. Thurnham), which would call for disclosure after the next election? It would be very helpful to know whether it would be your intention to consider this—

Madam Speaker

What is the amendment number?

Sir Teddy Taylor

Amendment (c), Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker

The hon. Gentleman cannot mean amendment (c).

Let me put this to the House. There are too many possible permutations for me to say at this stage which amendments will be called for Division purposes—particularly when hon. Members do not give me the number of the amendment. If some amendments are successful, others, logically, will fall, and similarly if some amendments are unsuccessful, other amendments will be called for Division. I cannot at this stage, without even being given the number of the amendment, say whether or not it will be called.

Sir Teddy Taylor

It is amendment (c) to motion No. 3, Madam Speaker. I am so sorry. It seems to me that there is a choice—

Madam Speaker

What is the amendment number?

Sir Teddy Taylor

Amendment (c) to motion No. 3, in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Bolton, North-East.

Madam Speaker

It is not selected.

Sir Teddy Taylor

So it will not be voted on—

Madam Speaker

The list of amendments is in both Lobbies. I suggest that hon. Members go and look at the list.

Mr. David Shaw (Dover)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. According to column 522 of Hansard, on Friday the hon. Member for Barking (Ms Hodge) mentioned my constituency without giving me notice. A notice about the issue was put on the Notice Board today, rather than on Friday. The hon. Member for Barking has a reputation for aiding and abetting child abuse; will you, Madam Speaker, stop her from abusing Members of Parliament? [Interruption.]

Madam Speaker

Order. I shall ask the hon. Gentleman to withdraw the remark that he has just made; otherwise I shall use the Standing Order that is available to me.

Mr. Shaw

I was referring, Madam Speaker, to the hon. Lady's reputation outside the House of Commons—

Madam Speaker

Order.

Mr. Shaw

rose—

Madam Speaker

Sit down. I shall give the hon. Gentleman one more opportunity: he will withdraw the charge that he has just made in relation to the hon. Member for Barking (Ms Hodge), or I shall use the Standing Order.

Mr. Shaw

I made no charge, but I shall, if necessary, withdraw—

Madam Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman will resume his seat. I am seeking an immediate withdrawal.

Mr. Shaw

I must withdraw, then, what I said earlier about the fact that the hon. Lady has a reputation outside the Chamber—

Madam Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman will apologise properly. I have given him three chances. He must stand up and apologise to me, and to the House.

Mr. Shaw

I have withdrawn the comments that I made earlier, Madam Speaker, which were repeated outside the Chamber.

Madam Speaker

I shall not accept the point of order originally raised by the hon. Gentleman until I see the letter that he committed himself to writing to me some days ago. I believe that it was handed to my secretary at 3.40 pm today, and I have not yet had an opportunity to see it.

Mr. Denis MacShane (Rotherham)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I seek your guidance on an entirely different matter.

The House has just paid tribute to Yitzhak Rabin, very movingly, and has spoken for the whole nation. Three hours ago, hon. Members on both sides of the House attended the funeral at Westminster cathedral of Derek Enright, the Member of Parliament for Hemsworth. Your Deputy paid a warm and wonderful tribute to him during the ceremony.

As a relatively new Member, Madam Speaker, may I ask whether you can—either on your own authority or in conjunction with the usual channels—find a mechanism to allow the House, without entering into a lengthy debate, to pay tribute to one of its Members who dies? The tribute would then appear in Hansard and would enter into the records of the House; it could be read by the Member's family, friends and colleagues.

I was slightly dismayed last week by the fairly curt announcement that was made—although that was not your fault, Madam Speaker—and by the fact that hon. Members could not pay tribute to one of their number who had passed on. I wonder whether, under the appropriate procedures—

Madam Speaker

Order. I have got the point. I am enormously sympathetic, but the matter was considered quite recently, and I determined that we should continue with the type of tribute that we have. It is quite important for us to have the tribute that is paid by the Chair when the death of a Member takes place.

Mr. David Wilshire (Spelthorne)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. May I return to the subject of this afternoon's debate? I entirely understand your point about not being able to give guidance at this stage, but, as you know, we are to have a free vote. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It will be for me; I cannot speak for anyone else.

Normally, Back Benchers such as me leave the sorting out of procedure to the great and the good, but in the event of a free vote those opportunities are not available to us. Before we vote, Madam Speaker, will you be able to explain to people such as me exactly what we are supposed to be doing?

Madam Speaker

Absolutely. When the time comes and the Divisions take place, I shall call out the numbers of the amendments so that every hon. Member knows precisely what Question is being put.

Mr. Gerald Bermingham (St. Helens, South)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Perhaps I may refer to what happened a few moments ago. Once again the hon. Member for Dover (Mr. Shaw) has accused a Member of the House of a criminal offence—

Madam Speaker

Order. I have dealt with that matter.

Mr. Bermingham

There has been no apology.

Madam Speaker

Order. There was an apology. [HON. MEMBERS: "No."] Order. I have accepted the withdrawal by the hon. Member for Dover (Mr. Shaw). I shall deal with other matters in relation to the hon. Gentleman as soon as I see his letter.

Mr. Peter Thurnham (Bolton, North-East)

Further to the points of order by my hon. Friends the Members for Southend, East (Sir T. Taylor) and for Spelthorne (Mr. Wilshire), Madam Speaker. Although the amendment in my name and that of my hon. Friends the Members for Southend, East and for Norwich, North (Mr. Thompson) will not be called, if the vote for immediate disclosure is not successful, will there be an opportunity to vote on amendment (j) in the name of my hon. Friend the Member for Spelthorne, which calls for disclosure in the next Parliament?

Madam Speaker

Is that amendment (j) to motion No. 2?

Mr. Thurnham

Yes, Madam Speaker.

Madam Speaker

If amendments (b) and (g) are agreed to, (j) will fall. If amendment (b) is not agreed to, amendment (j) will be put. I cannot now go through the entire list. Other hon. Members have accepted that I will take them through and give them guidance before they vote.

Mr. Nicholas Budgen (Wolverhampton, South-West)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Is this a satisfactory way to decide who in some instances shall be a Member of the House? Is not the matter of wider interest to the country as a whole, and ought it not to be dealt with by legislation analogous to the Representation of the People Act 1991?

Madam Speaker

Order. That is not a matter for me: it is a matter for the Government. I think that the House now wishes to proceed to this important debate.

Mr. Rhodri Morgan (Cardiff, West)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Has any Minister sought to make a statement this afternoon or at any time today about the extraordinary events that came to light over the weekend concerning the general practitioners' contract and its impact in Presteigne? Those events concern the removal for the first time in British history of patients from a GP's list for financial reasons. The doctor has been honest enough to say that he has removed a family, Mr. and Mrs. Venables and their children, from the GP's list of his practice for purely financial reasons.

Madam Speaker

The answer is no. If there were to be a statement, we would all know about it because it would be on the annunciator.

Mr. Tony Marlow (Northampton, North)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. If on motion No. 2, amendment (b), which is to do with proposed agreements, is passed and amendment (g) fails, will it be possible to call amendment (j)? What is the time limit for the debate?

Madam Speaker

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply that I gave earlier, when I said that there were far too many possible permutations for me to say at this stage which amendments would be called for Division. Of course, I shall carefully lead the House through the amendments before each Division.

Ms Harriet Harman (Peckham)

On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Has the Secretary of State for Health made a request to make a statement about the GP in Bracknell who has written to women patients saying that they need screening for cervical cancer once every three years? They can get it on the NHS only once every five years and he is recommending that they go private—

Madam Speaker

Order. Let me make it quite clear that no Minister has said to me that he is anxious to make a statement today on any subject. I am anxious to proceed to this important debate.

4.13 pm
The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Tony Newton)

I beg to move, That the Resolution of the House of 15th July 1947 relating to Privileges shall be amended by adding at the end the words— `and that in particular no Member of the House shall, in consideration of any remuneration, fee, payment, reward or benefit in kind, direct or indirect, which the Member or any member of his or her family has received is receiving or expects to receive—

  1. (i) advocate or initiate any cause or matter on behalf of any outside body or individual, or
  2. (ii) urge any other Member of either House of Parliament, including Ministers, to do so, by means of any speech, Question, Motion, introduction of a Bill or amendment to a Motion or Bill'.

Madam Speaker

With this, it will be convenient to discuss the following motions: