§ Lady Olga Maitland (Sutton and Cheam)On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Will you please give me some guidance on a very important matter? Are you aware that, under the Nolan rules, no Member of Parliament may raise in a debate anything that they have learnt on a fact-finding mission to an overseas country that has been hosted by that country's Government? As things stand, it would be deemed to be advocacy, even if the Member of Parliament had no contract with the country concerned. Therefore, he would be under an obligation—frankly—to stand down.
That affects all Members. We are all effectively gagged by rules that I hope will be discussed with Sir Gordon Downey. Perhaps there will then be a little sanity on this very important issue.
§ Madam SpeakerThe hon. Lady has raised a most important issue. I am very understanding of her predicament and—perhaps—that of other hon. Members on both sides of the House. At the same time, however, I must remind her that the House has given the responsibility of making detailed judgments on what is and what is not paid advocacy not to me but to the Commissioner, and, importantly of course, to the Committee on Privileges and Standards. The hon. Lady must pursue the matter there—I know that she has already had some talks with the Commissioner.
In that connection, that I hope that the usual channels will find it possible to put Committee nominations before the House very soon indeed. We have been waiting long enough for the Committee. There is much urgent work for it to do, and Members who find themselves in a similar predicament to that of the hon. Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) are awaiting its recommendations. We look forward to it being established very soon.
§ Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)On a point of order, Madam Speaker—or it may be a point of taste. It is on whether the recently departed and dead are entitled to be quoted accurately from the Dispatch Box.
During Question Time, it may be within your recollection that the hon. Member for Rochford (Dr. Clark), very gracefully and very properly, from the Government Back Benches raised the question of a tribute to the late John Collier, the former chairman of Nuclear Electric. From the Dispatch Box, the Minister used the occasion—I think a little tastelessly—to point out how enthusiastic the late John Collier had been about privatisation. Those of us who were privileged to work with John Collier know that his attitude was far more complex than that. I do not think that senior Ministers should use the Dispatch Box to make party points in relation to the dead.
§ Madam SpeakerThat is obviously a matter of opinion, and not one for me. It is about the way in which all of us interpret such issues.
§ Sir Irvine Patnick (Sheffield, Hallam)On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Earlier today, I raised with you in writing what occurred last night. Opposition Whips were standing shoulder to shoulder at the No Lobby, stopping Members of Parliament from exercising their right to vote in that Lobby. This bully-boy tactic—[Interruption.]
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. I wish to hear the hon. Member.
§ Sir Irvine PatnickThis bully-boy tactic is not in keeping with the House of Commons, or with page 399 of "Erskine May". Speaking as a former Whip, although I have been intimidated by some of the former Opposition Whips—not the present crop—I have never known Whips, including a lady Whip, to stand shoulder to shoulder to stop Members of Parliament from exercising their proper duty of voting.[Interruption.]
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. I am quite capable of dealing with the matter—in fact, I dealt with it at the time last night. Let me say quite seriously that no hon. Member complained to me of being unable to vote. All those who wished to vote were able to do so. That is the important point.
§ Mr. Michael Fabricant (Mid-Staffordshire)How do you know?
§ Madam SpeakerI will tell hon. Members how I know—because no complaint was made to me. As Members of Parliament complain to me if the air in this Chamber is not fresh enough for them, they would have certainly have complained to me if they could not vote—[Interruption.] Order. I have not finished yet. I stood here last night, and I saw the Opposition Whip standing by the Door. He was by no means intimidating. As a former Whip, I can tell the House that, when I wanted to keep Members out of a Division Lobby, it was a single Nelson; when I wanted them to go into a Division Lobby, it was a double Nelson—[Laughter.]
§ Mr. Alan Duncan (Rutland and Melton)It is not funny.
§ Mr. Robert G. Hughes (Harrow, West)On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I wish to seek your guidance, as I take a serious view of what happened last night, as I am sure you do. Page 148 of "Erskine May" refers to the
assaulting, insulting or menacing of any Member of this House",which is certainly what I saw last night. In fact, "Erskine May" describes it as
a most outrageous and dangerous violation of the rights of Parliament and an high crime"."Erskine May" does not make it clear how that matter should be dealt with, but the fact is that last night was not the first time that I have seen such intimidation. What was done was done out of your eyesight, Madam Speaker, so that you could not see the intimidation that was taking place. I think that something should be done about that.
§ Madam SpeakerLast night, I drew the attention of hon. Members to the Door on my left, which was clearly open.
§ Mr. DuncanThat is not the Lobby.
§ Madam SpeakerThe entrance to the Lobby is also here, and I drew—
§ Mr. Duncanrose—
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. Will the hon. Gentleman allow me to speak when I am on my feet? I drew the attention of hon. Members to the fact that this Door was open last night, that they could proceed through it, and that, if there were any problems, I would take responsibility.
374 The hon. Member for Harrow, West (Mr. Hughes) has raised a serious point. However, there was no violation. If there was, any hon. Member who sought to vote last night should have reported that situation to the Speaker, and it was my responsibility to ensure that that Member was able to go through the Door, which was open.
§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)rose—
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. Is it the same matter?
§ Mr. SkinnerYes.
§ Madam SpeakerI have dealt with the matter.
§ Mr. SkinnerYou have listened to two Tories.
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. I have dealt with the matter.
§ Mr. SkinnerI was one of the 10.
§ Madam SpeakerWho voted?
§ Mr. SkinnerYes.
§ Madam SpeakerI saw that; I looked at the Division list this morning.
§ Mr. SkinnerI spent 10 minutes with a Whip before I went into the Lobby, and I almost persuaded him to go into the Lobby with me.
§ Madam SpeakerThat is a different matter.
§ Mr. Ian Bruce (South Dorset)On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I am sure that the House is grateful for the advice that you gave earlier to my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton and Cheam (Lady Olga Maitland) about the Commissioner and the Privileges and Standards Committee, which needs to meet to clarify rules.
I understand that, within the next day or so, the Government will make a statement about the franchises on railways. As you will know, every hon. Member is entitled to claim free rail travel, for both his business purposes and his personal purposes, to and from his constituency and this place. Therefore, we clearly have a personal financial interest in the good running of the railways.
When the statement is made, will it be in order for hon. Members to press upon the Minister how important it is to have late-night trains, especially as such a facility affects hon. Members even more than their constituents?
§ Madam SpeakerI am afraid that late-night trains are not a matter for me. However, I take the hon. Gentleman's point very seriously. It is a matter for the Commissioner and the Committee. As I have said, it is time that the Committee was established, because there is a great deal of work waiting for it to do.
§ Mr. Gerald Bermingham (St. Helens, South)On a point of order, Madam Speaker. This may be a mundane point, but it affects every Member of the House. It concerns the continuing use of a corner of Palace Yard by those who are tunnelling underneath the river and God knows what else. The result is that taxis cannot see when the taxi light is on, and therefore are not coming into the Yard.
All those who frequently wish to leave the Palace of Westminster—[Laughter.] I make this point quite seriously, because right hon. and hon. Members, in their 375 daily business, have to come and go. Could not some arrangement be made so that taxi drivers would realise that taxis were needed?
§ Madam SpeakerI will refer the matter to the Serjeant at Arms. The hon. Gentleman's point of order recalls my earlier comments to the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hallam (Sir I. Patnick), that Members who could not reach the Division Lobbies last night would have certainly complained to me about it. Hon Members complain to me about the quality of air in this place, and about whether lights are flashing on and off. Members who were not able to vote last night would certainly have approached the Chair immediately to complain.