HC Deb 16 February 1994 vol 237 cc928-30
2. Mr. Heppell

To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment what further representations he has received concerning fraud and corruption in local government.

The Minister for Local Government and Planning (Mr. David Curry)

From time to time, there are allegations about fraud and corruption which are pursued by the proper authorities. Fraud and corruption are always to be condemned.

Mr. Heppell

Will the Minister confirm the view that has already been expressed by the Government spokesperson in another place that John Magill, the district auditor in the Westminster homes for votes scandal, acted correctly and followed procedures to the letter? Will he join me and others in condemning Westminster Tories who are using the tragic death of Dr. Michael Dutt to try to discredit the district auditor's report?

Mr. Curry

The position is extremely clear and I am surprised that the hon. Gentleman does not know it. The auditor acted perfectly properly, but the conclusions that he has come to are preliminary conclusions, which have not been subject to any trial or adjudication by a court. Clearly, there is a procedure that will decide whether those conclusions were well founded. At that point, people can form their judgment. It is wrong to do so before.

Mr. Bates

Is my hon. Friend aware that the hon. Member for Vauxhall (Ms Hoey), speaking of Lambeth council, was reported in The Times on 23 January 1993 as saying: the whole place is falling to bits with corruption"?

Mr. Curry

I know that the hon. Lady is an extremely assiduous Member for her constituency. She is clearly in a much better position to make judgments than the rest of us.

Mr. Betts

Is not it time that Ministers stopped condemning Labour authorities when only vague allegations have been made about their conduct, and addressed the real problems in authorities such as Westminster? Will the Minister tell us what his Department knew about the cash incentive scheme in Westminster? Was not that scheme approved by his Department? Were not the subsidies for that scheme paid by his Department? Was not the monitoring of the scheme carried out by his Department? Did not the Department undertake a comprehensive review of the scheme, which showed precisely what was happening? Is not it time that the Government came clean and not merely criticised what Westminster council did but owned up to their responsibility in that sordid matter?

Mr. Curry

The hon. Gentleman's introduction was revealing. He asked whether it was not time that we did not look at Labour councils. I say that we should look at all councils where there are allegations of corruption, no matter what political colour they are. We have a common interest in stopping corruption and sorting it out wherever it is found, irrespective of what council it is. We should create a clear distinction between allegations and what is found to be true. When allegations have been proven, we have a common interest in seeking probity in local government, irrespective of what council is involved.

Mrs. Angela Knight

Is my hon. Friend aware that in addition to the allegations of corruption and fraud in Labour-controlled Monklands, Lambeth and Haringey, the ex-deputy leader of Labour-controlled Derbyshire county council is currently serving a prison sentence for defrauding the council by fiddling his expenses?

Mr. Curry

My understanding is that the gentleman has appealed against his sentence. He is alleged to be conducting council business from his cell in the mean time, and is receiving the allowances that go with those responsibilities. I should have thought that it might be slightly more prudent for those allowances to be held and paid if he is proved not guilty, rather than being paid during the period of his appeal.

Mr. Straw

Is the Minister aware that, on top of the systematic corruption and gerrymandering exposed in Westminster, there is a rising tide of reports of official corruption investigations in one Conservative district council after another, the latest being in South Oxfordshire, Hertsmere and Mid Bedfordshire? Is not it because the abuse of power by many sections of the Conservative party is so extensive that, in addition to what some Members of Parliament have said, the former Lord Chancellor and ostensible upholder of the rule of law, Lord Hailsham, issued a most disgraceful attack in another place on the integrity and independence of the district auditor? Is not it the case that, in the eyes of some Conservatives, the independence of the judicial process ends where Conservative sleaze and corruption begin?

Mr. Curry

What the former Lord Chancellor said is perfectly clear. He said that many people were acting as if the auditor's report were proven fact and those people mentioned in it had been condemned in a court of law. He said that that was not the case and that the reports contained the preliminary findings, which have to be verified. I see absolutely nothing wrong with that.

If the hon. Gentleman wishes to swap councils across the Dispatch Box, then anyone can play that game. We have a common interest in ensuring that we have a system of local government that people respect and that is conducted on the basis of probity. If the hon. Gentleman wishes simply to drag us into a mud-slinging contest on that subject let him go for it because I am happy to sling with everyone else, but it will not do any good to the electorate, to local government or to those who aspire to public service.