§ Mr. Michael Jopling (Westmorland and Lonsdale)I beg to move amendment No. 1, in page 6, line 14, at end insert
`(including provision in accordance with which such procedure is to be determined)'.Rather than raise another point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, perhaps I may respond to the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn). I apologise if he was misled, but I do not believe that it was my fault. It was always in my mind that this was the possible day for dealing with the remaining stages of the Bill.I do not recall saying anything on Second Reading or in Committee to indicate that this business might be dealt with on a different date. It seemed to me important that the Bill, which has universal support across the House, should make headway as soon as possible—particularly so that their Lordships might have an opportunity to debate it at length.
§ Mr. CorbynMy complaint was not against the right hon. Gentleman, but I hope that a statement will be made on the outcome of the Kyoto conference. It is obviously extremely important both to have legislation on the statute book that meets the needs of the Madrid agreement and that the House be kept informed. I hoped that the Bill's remaining stages would be dealt with later so that we could—if this is not an unfortunate analogy—kill two birds with one stone and hear a statement from the Minister at the same time.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I have allowed comments on that matter to continue long enough. Perhaps we may now make progress with amendment No. 1.
§ Mr. JoplingClause 14(1)(e) empowers the Secretary of State to make regulations establishing a right of appeal
against the revocation or suspension of permits, and as to the procedure to be followed in relation to such appeals.This technical amendment strengthens the Bill.584 As the clause is presently drafted, there may be doubt about whether the regulations could provide for the appeal body to determine its procedure. The amendment makes it clear that the regulations which, if the Bill is agreed, will be laid could provide how the appeal procedure is to be determined—for instance, by the appeal body.
§ Mr. CorbynI rise on amendment No. 1, although my starred amendment about the permit system has not been called. While I understand the technical nature of the amendment proposed by the right hon. Gentleman, it does underline the importance of an appeal system and a procedure that allows a number of things to happen.
As I understand it, the amendment essentially lays down the ground work under which regulations would be published to enable an appeal system to take place. It seems to me that the basis must, first, be the need for open and public scrutiny of applications, publications, approvals, refusals or appeals that might be made of permits for scientific exploration or, indeed, expeditions within the Antarctic, and also the method by which an appeal might be made.
Concern was expressed a number of times in Committee, and has been since, about the delegation of powers to the British Antarctic Survey, which are implicit in some of the permits that might well be applied for for certain work. It surely cannot be right that a particular organisation, albeit publicly owned, funded and run, such as the British Antarctic Survey, should have a right to grant itself appeals for work it does.
The whole principle has to be openness. Indeed, the expeditions undertaken by Greenpeace, the World Wide Fund for Nature and others, to examine what is going on in the Antarctic, have been helpful in demonstrating the way in which a number of countries have simply not lived up to their obligations under the Antarctic treaty system, have spoilt the environment and done enormous damage there.
§ Mr. Tom Clarke (Monklands, West)Does my hon. Friend agree that, if the House found it possible to include something that recognised his argument, that would be an inspiration to the other countries involved in the treaty and the protocol, and would be seen perhaps as best practice?
§ Mr. CorbynIndeed. That would be extremely helpful, and a very good step forward. My hon. Friend makes a good point. We want to ensure that the Antarctic remains a zone of peace, a place of scientific exploration, and that there is regulation and a regime there to prevent illegal mining activities and prevent people from spoiling the environment. That is why there is widespread support for the concept of a permit system. But once one grants powers to somebody to give permits to other people, obviously one has also granted powers to people to refuse permits for certain people.
I am concerned that, on occasions, a Government might decide that they do not want people to look at what they are doing down there, and refuse permits to particular organisations. They might decide, for example, that Greenpeace should not be granted a permit to examine what is going on in the Antarctic. I very much hope that that would not be the case, as it is an extremely responsible organisation, but it is essential that there be an openness in an appeals system and a publication.
That is why much of the debate in Committee was about an amendment that I tabled asking for publication in The 585 London Gazette of applications for permits. I have never read it, but I understand that that is the way of getting things published. Unfortunately, that was not agreed by the Government or the right hon. Gentleman who is the promoter of the Bill.
My other point is about the role of the British Antarctic Survey is this. I hope that any regulations proposed under clause 14 will ensure that any permits that the British Antarctic Survey is allowed to grant itself for its exploration or research activity will be open, published and public so that it is clear what it is doing. It is a dangerous practice in law to grant delegated powers to any organisation, because we already have an arm's-length approach. It would seem to be more like a mile and a half arm's-length approach if we allowed that to happen.
I hope that, when drawing up the regulations, the Minister will recognise the legitimate concerns that were expressed in Committee, and which I understand were also expressed by a number of groups, especially non-governmental organisations, at the Kyoto conference, and by interested environmental groups in this country. I hope that the Minister will recognise the role that such groups have to play and the necessity of involving them in discussion and close examination of the permit system.
If the BAS is allowed to grant itself permits for lesser activities, those activities may increase in size. That could lead to a situation in which a permit has been granted for one thing, but, because the exploration work is already under way, it is assumed that it can take place under a Government permit because the BAS has granted one to itself. It seems that it could be a Trojan horse.
I should much prefer all permits to be dealt with openly by the Secretary of State, with publication and a clear right of appeal for all those who have been refused a permit for whatever reason. The Secretary of State should also publish the reasons for any refusal.
§ Mr. JoplingThe House has listened with interest to the hon. Member for Islington, North (Mr. Corbyn). As he said, many of the points that he made were made in Committee. With respect, I think that he will agree that many of them are rather wide of the amendment. I remind him that we are debating an amendment to clause 14(1)(e), which relates to regulations that might be laid to deal with appeals against the revocation or suspension of permits.
It is not envisaged that the appeal body will need to be more than a relatively dormant institution, to be brought to life on an ad hoc basis when and if it should be needed. Most permits are likely to be issued on an ad hoc or seasonal basis and the likelihood of their being revoked or suspended, except of course in the case of an emergency, is therefore relatively small.
Although it will be important for the regulations to specify the basic appeal procedure if people are aggrieved because their permits have been revoked, it is also desirable that the appeal body should be able to devise its own detailed procedures. That is allowed for in the regulations that will be laid in this instance. I hope that, in view of that explanation, the House will accept this technical amendment.
§ Mr. Corbynrose—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I remind the hon. Gentleman that we are on Report, not in Committee.
§ Amendment agreed to.