§ Lords amendment to a Commons amendment in lieu of a Lords amendment: 1A, in Subsection (4), line 2, leave out from first ("to") to ("in") and insert ("award a franchise under this Part").
§ Mr. MacGregorI beg to move, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment.
I shall also be asking the House to disagree with the other two. [Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. The House must settle down. I gave the hon. Member for Newham, South the opportunity to put his point of order. [Interruption.] Let me have an opportunity to hear the hon. Gentleman's point of order. Mr. Spearing.
§ Mr. SpearingI am obliged to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for making the matter clear. I was under the impression that I was speaking to the debate, not to a point of order. But you have ruled that I am on a point of order, so I shall now put it to you.
Will you please confirm, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that, in the normal circumstances of the House, business that is brought to the House at short notice which, by its nature, cannot be transferred to those who wish to debate here, can be stopped by the House accepting a motion that the House do now adjourn. Will you please confirm that the timetable motion, which was moved by Her Majesty's Government a couple of days ago and accepted by the House, precludes that safeguard for keeping the minorities' rights alive? Therefore, the fact that the Question that has just been put, which was taken forthwith without opposition, means that we will not have the opportunity to move the Adjournment of the House?
Secondly—[Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. In an attempt to cool down the excitement, I inform the House that the hon. Member approached the Chair and asked to put that point of order. I took it to be a point of order and that is why I allowed it. I have now got the hon. Member's message, so I call the Secretary of State. [Interruption.]
§ Mr. MacGregorI have already begged to move that the House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment, and I shall be asking the House to disagree with the other two as well. [Interruption.] The three 421 amendments from the other place that we are being asked to debate are basically about one point, the bidding system for franchises. I remind the House of the objectives of the franchising system—
§ Mr. Ken Livingstone (Brent, East)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Will you assure the House that, unlike other Ministers proposing privatisation legislation, the Secretary of State for Transport will not be rewarded by a well-remunerated position on the privatised railways once this legislation has been pushed through—a big fat backhander, like all the rest of them had?
§ Mr. MacGregor—and they are all to improve the services for passengers. They will do so by promoting the competition for franchises, by encouraging management buy-outs to provide the franchises, by encouraging new entries into the passenger railway industry to provide more competition for franchises and by preventing the dominance of any one person or persons in the market. Those are the key objectives of the bidding system that we have for franchises.
The amendments passed in the other place this afternoon would seriously undermine all those objectives, for which the House voted last night by a clear majority. I have had reports of the debates in the other place, and the only speaker who addressed the amendments was my noble Friend the Minister for Aviation and Shipping. The rest of the speeches were all extremely general.
Therefore, I propose to address the amendments and explain to the House why we invite the House to reject the amendments.
§ Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan)Will the Minister give way?
§ Mr. MacGregorIf the hon. Gentleman will listen, I shall tell him the purpose of the amendments. I shall not give way, because we have only one hour. The clock is moving, and I know that many hon. Members wish to speak. There is not much time, and it is important that the House understands what we are discussing. I intend to address that, rather then what was said in the other place.
The first two amendments effectively say that the eligibility of a British Rail bid will be decided at the time of awarding the franchise rather than at the time of invitation for tender. [Interruption.] I am not at all surprised that Opposition Members do not wish to hear the arguments on the amendments; they have never done. That is part of the problem. They do not address the real issues. That is exactly why—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. David Winnick (Walsall, North)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. The Chair, and I am sure every other hon. Member, is having great difficulty in hearing the Secretary of State. The House must now settle down and get down to the serious debate. Before we do that, I shall take one last point of order from the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick).
§ Mr. WinnickThe Minister has referred to the debate in the other place. My point of order is simple and clear. At the moment, we have not had an opportunity to study the arguments by which the other place came to its decision. It 422 makes a total mockery of the democratic process that we should be debating these matters when we are not in a position to know why their Lordships came to the decision that they did, and I am asking you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to rule on that.
Mr. Deputy SpeakerThe House was fully aware of the situation when it decided to debate the amendments forthwith. Mr. MacGregor.
§ Mr. MacGregorIt was made perfectly clear—[Interruption.]
Mr. Deputy speakerOrder. The House must now settle down and listen to the Secretary of State and any other hon. Member who is called to speak.
§ Mr. MacGregorMy right hon. Friend the Leader of the House made it clear that we might be considering Lords amendments this week when he made his business statement. This is a perfectly normal procedure at this stage of the Parliament. [Interruption.] If the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Winnick) wants to hear the arguments and what this is about, he should listen, instead of Labour Members making that great noise which shows their hypocrisy and how little they care about the arguments. I shall repeat what the amendment does as I am sure that Labour Members and many of my hon. Friends did not hear because of the noise.
Two of our amendments—the third amendment is closely linked to them—relate to the eligibility of a British Rail bid. Under the amendments, the decision of the franchising director as to whether a British Rail bid should be eligible will be made at the time of awarding the franchise, rather than at the time of the invitation to tender, as we proposed. Last night, we had a lengthy debate on this issue.
I shall briefly explain what the effect of the amendments will be. First, most, if not all, management buy-outs will be totally discouraged from bidding for the franchise. If management buy-outs do not know whether British Rail will be made ineligible until after the invitation to tender and after the whole process, they will feel exactly as we agreed last night—that they are being squeezed out and wholly discouraged, and therefore will not incur the expense and the effort to make the bid in the first place.
Secondly, other bidders whom we talked about last night and whom we wish to see bid will be deterred. Hence it will undermine one of the whole purposes of the franchise system and the bidding process, which is to encourage competition for franchises. It will not help—indeed, it will create chaos and confusion. It will not help with the argument that I raised last night—that the amendment from the other place, which we addressed yesterday, will mean that in each individual franchise, the people who may be framing the British Rail bid will be the ones who also wanted to do a management buy-out. As I spelt out yesterday, that is a recipe for total chaos and confusion. It will also mean that there will be a great deal of unnecessary cost.
Our amendment is preferable because it avoids all the problems; it encourages management buy-outs and other bidders; it encourages competition for the franchises and it avoids the confusion and unworkability. Indeed, what we now face would work out in practice as simply having a 423 single monopoly supplier of the services again. The Bill is designed to prevent the dominant single supplier in the public sector.
§ Mr. Hugh Bayley (York)Will the Secretary of State give way?
§ Mr. MacGregorI will not give way, because the debate is a short one.
I must make the point that we have debated these issues on many occasions in the House. We debated them for two hours yesterday, although the vast majority of Labour Members were not present to hear the arguments. We have given much more time to these issues and debated them at greater length than did the other place. Fundamentally, this means that we will not get all the changes and benefits of competition that we are seeing in the former nationalised industries.
Yesterday, some of my hon. Friends pointed out that we were debating this Bill at a time when we saw yet another benefit of privatisation with the reduction in British Telecom prices that had just been announced. We would not get that benefit.
As I explained yesterday, our amendment will still enable British Rail to bid in defined circumstances. I do not need to repeat the arguments but that is one of the big changes that we accepted on the original Peyton amendment. Last night, I argued that, for a variety of reasons, it would be unworkable and would not meet our objectives. That will remain the position with the amendment that has come back from the other place.
The third amendment is closely linked to the other two. It has two main effects—it will delete the promotion of competition for franchises from the criteria which the franchising director must take into account, and insert instead a requirement that the transfer of services to the private sector should not significantly increase the costs of the franchising director. [Interruption.] The reaction of Labour Members shows the frivolity with which they approach these matters. It is clear that they do not care and they are not serious.
The amendment has one bad effect and is unnecessary. The bad effect is that it removes the objective of promoting competition for franchises. Since that objective is one of the basic purposes of the reforms that we are undertaking, it cannot be right that we should ask the House to remove it.
The second point is that the amendment argues the case that an award should not significantly increase the cost to the franchising director. That is unnecessary, because the process that we have made clear—the process that is involved in our proposals, which I have talked about on many occasions—means that the franchising director will take into account the costs in any awards that he makes, not least because he will have as his benchmark the historic track record of the existing passenger franchise, the new shadow franchise, when he examines the bids.—[Interruption.]] I am explaining precisely what it is about so that everyone understands. If the franchising director decides that the bids are not viable or competitive, or involve increased costs, he will not award any franchise and it will return to the existing British Rail operation.
In addition, value for money, which the amendment is supposed to be about, is already one of the franchising 424 director's objectives. So I have explained clearly and precisely that we object to the amendments for the very reasons that, last night, the House passed our amendment by a substantial majority. That is why I invite the House to disagree with the Lords in the said amendment.
§ Mr. John Prescott (Kingston upon Hull, East)This controversial Railways Bill, this arrogant Government and this incompetent Secretary of State for Transport have reduced Parliament to a running farce today. It started because the Secretary of State decided to deny this House and the other place the right to debate by introducing a guillotine in the way that he did.
The Government sought a cheap advantage by trying to rush the Bill through the House before proper debate could take place. That is the same charge that we lay against the Lords, who had to discuss Government amendments which were passed only last night and communicated by a reasons committee, of which I am member, which was set up at 2.30 in the Morning. I believe that I am still a member of that committee, which will have to meet again after this debate to tell the other place why we agree or disagree with their amendment. I resign from that committee. I cannot sit on it with any sense of democratic participation in view of the mockery of democracy that has been brought about by the Secretary of State. This is possibly my last appearance as the Opposition spokesman on transport.
Since 1979, there have been 14 Secretaries of State for Transport. I have dealt with three of them, and this Secretary of State is by far the worst. He treats the House with utter contempt. The last three lasted only 18 months, and I believe that this month is this Secretary of State's 18th month. It is about time he went with the others.
The problem that the House faces today arises directly from the amendments and the guillotine procedure with which we were faced yesterday. The guillotine denies us proper and adequate debate on these essential matters. I remind those who attended yesterday's debate of the speech by the right hon. Member for Shropshire, North (Mr. Biffen) about the guillotine procedure. As he is an ex-Leader of the House, we all listen carefully to what he says. He said:
no House of Commons having even a modest regard for the self-respect of legislators would be presenting them with such an extensive .…. Bill to be dispatched in two days."—[Official Report, 2 November 1993; Vol. 231, c. 187.]9 pmThat is at the heart of the problem that we face today. The problem in the House of Lords is exactly the same. This Government have deployed all the political trickery in the book to seek a political advantage to force down the throats of both Houses a view that they cannot substantiate in debate. They can enforce their view only by means of a guillotine and because of some Members who do not understand what they are doing. That has always characterised this debate. Yesterday my right hon. Friend the Member for Derby, South (Mrs. Beckett) described that, properly, as "a constitutional outrage". Any impartial person watching our debates on television might think that that is what is happening.
The argument to be placed against the Government is not only that they are a Government of cheats, but that they treat the House with utter contempt. The dates of our proceedings show that. Monday was a classic example. When the Government tabled a 10 o'clock business motion, it was reasonable to assume that the debate would 425 be allowed to continue beyond 10 o'clock. The Government tabled that motion to lull the House into a false sense of security, thinking that there would be long enough to debate these matters, only to move a motion at 10 o'clock to close the debate and announce a guillotine. It was all to ensure that the debate would not centre on an examination of the real issues. The same procedures were adopted in the other place when a matter concerning these amendments was discussed, of which we have no record because it took place only hours ago.
The Secretary of State will know that, in the previous guillotined debate, we made great play of the argument of the memorandum of understanding concerning pensioners. The Government signed it prior to the other place voting on pensions, in the belief that the memorandum of understanding meant what the Government said it meant. The Government abrogated their agreement on that, but sought and got the vote in the other place. They got that by trickery. That is what has characterised the whole approach of the Government during these debates.
One of the Lords amendments changes a decision agreed by this House last night. I should remind hon. Members who have not attended our debates on these issues, as the Secretary of State has attempted to, what the issue is about. It is about the right of British Rail to bid for the franchise under the Bill's provisions for the privatisation of British Rail. There were some rebels—perhaps I should not use that word, because they did not materialise. If anybody thought that those amendments meant anything, they would buy anything.
When the Bill was first debated in the House, the Government did not believe that British Rail should have the right to bid for the franchise because, they said, it would blow a hole in the Bill. In other words, they did not want the most competent authority to bid for the facilities. The real intention of the Bill, which is at the heart of these amendments, is to allow the private sector to get its hands on the profitable bits of British Rail at the expense of taxpayers and rail travellers. So the House of Lords considered the matter and then restored British Rail's right to bid.
It is offensive for Ministers to talk about whether the other places gives proper consideration to legislation or whether it has the experience to do so. The two Tory Lords who have been leading the attack on this were both Secretaries of State for Transport in different Tory Governments. One was a chairman of British Rail. I can only assume that they must know what problems face a railway system. Both are Tories, and both have tremendous experience in government and in the management of the railway system. Both take the view that the Government's view is utter nonsense. Lord Peyton described it as "not common sense".
Yesterday, the Government sought to provide a right for British Rail to bid for the franchise, and Back Bencthers agreed. Lord Peyton saw that as a small step forward. It was made clear that the person who was to award! the contract was to ensure that, if a private bidder bid against British Rail, even if his bid cost more, priority must be given to that private bidder, fixing the market, as the Government have done with the coal industry, to ensure that the private sector wins the argument.
The Lords could not accept that; they rejected it. It is a reasonable proposition to reject, and that is precisely what they did. They have told the House that it is utter nonsense. They have now told us that they do not reject it totally. 426 They welcome the Government's move towards some form of privatisation—something that Opposition Members totally reject—but they have told the Government that, if British Rail is now allowed to bid, it should be allowed to make a bid up to the time of award.
The Lords have also made it clear that they are concerned from our debates that, if a private sector bid comes along that is more costly than the British Rail bid, the taxpayer might get conned. Why does the Secretary of State want an extra £2 billion from the Treasury if it is not plunder to put in the pockets of the private sector to bid?
In Sweden, the national operator has been able to provide a better service, and the franchise director has been able to give it the award. The Secretary of State fears that that will happen here. The Lords amendments before us say, "You will not give the franchise to a private sector bidder if its bid is substantially greater than the British Rail bid." They are even giving a margin of edge to the private sector. They are trying to protect, however, the pockets of the taxpayers. The House of Lords defended the taxpayers when the Government had already given up.
Apparently, Lord Peyton and others do not understand that the purpose of privatisation is to take money out of public funds and put it in the pockets of private industry. That is precisely what it is all about. The Lords have said that they cannot accept that proposition; neither can Members of this House.
The Government say that they stand for employee and management buy-out bids. The real reason is that the 50 private companies that were said to want to bid have not materialised; they have vanished. They have considered the problems and they are scared of what is likely to happen. In desperation, the Government now want to fix it so that a few managers can get into the market and bid against British Rail. That will cause confusion in the British Rail system and conflict in the management, who will divert their energies from running a railway system into making competing bids in the name of privatisation. That is not the way to run a railway system.
The Lords amendment is right. We disagree about the principle of privatisation, but they are trying to limit the damage and protect the interests of the taxpayer. One would have thought that the Secretary of State and Conservative Members would have been worried, but no; they will troop into those Lobbies again today to tell the House of Lords that they totally reject their amendment.
That is the issue. It is a matter of substance. Tonight we are debating the credibility of the Secretary of State, the arrogance of the Government and an affront to democracy. That is why we shall oppose the Government's amendment tonight.
§ Sir David Mitchell (Hampshire, North-West)The Lords amendment is a thinly veiled attempt by Lord Peyton to destroy the Government's rail privatisation measure in its entirety. Successful franchising is an essential part of the Bill. Railtrack will remain in the public sector. All of the system that is not franchised will remain in the public sector. It is on the franchising front only that the private sector becomes involved. Therefore, the benefits of this massive Bill rely on the success of franchising.
Franchising will bring three benefits to the public: first culture, secondly competition and thirdly cash. By "culture", I mean the interjection of the enterprise culture that has been so desperately missing from British Rail's 427 activities, and the wind of change that that will bring to the whole of the enterprise. By "competition", I mean that there will be astonishment when several bidders fight each other for the minimum amount of subsidy that they require to operate the service. That experience has been offered elsewhere in the transport world and will undoubtedly repeat itself if we are successful in enacting the Bill.
The third benefit is cash to get rid of the Treasury's dead hand and enable those people to go to the markets for money and increase their investment in a way which the Treasury would never permit. Those benefits would be denied if the Lords amendments were accepted and the benefits of franchising were taken away.
Bids for franchises will come from four main sources: management buy-outs; international rail engineering companies; existing transport companies such as P and 0 and Virgin; and City-backed entrepreneurs. None of those would bid if the amendments were accepted, because the amendments would destroy effective bidding by the private sector, which would have to bid against British Rail's unfettered right to bid. Only once that had happened would the franchise director assess the bids and question whether British Rail's bid should be barred.
On that basis, there would be no bids, because there would be no level playing field. Bidders would be scared off by British Rail's financial muscle, the fear of deliberate artificial cross-subsidisation, the knowledge that British Rail would not know whether it was cross-subsidising, and British Rail's access to cheap public money, which would not be available to other franchise bidders.
The amendments would put a tourniquet around the throats of managers considering a bid. None of them would dare to bid against his employer, knowing that afterwards he might lose his job and that his job would be on the line the whole time that he was preparing his bid.
Will my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State be wary of amendments that have obviously been drafted by British Rail's lawyers for British Rail's benefit and sponsored in the Lords by past British Rail management? I go further and say that it is improper for British Rail to use public money to campaign against a Government programme approved by the electors.
§ Mr. Hugh Bayley (York)The Secretary of State's speech contained three fatal errors. First, he said that, because we have spent hundreds of hours debating this Bill, we need not debate it any longer. But we have never debated this proposal from the Lords. It has never come before either House until today.
Secondly, the amendment allows the franchising director to rule out absolutely any BR bid unless it is substantially cheaper than private sector bids. What possible objection could there be to that?
Thirdly, he said that there would be a conflict of interests if BR managers put together a management buy-out bid in competition with BR, when BR were also bidding. But a conflict of interests will exist if those managers challenge their company by submitting an alternative bid while remaining in the company. If there is to be a level playing field, private sector firms will have to bid from outside BR. The managers who want to opt out of BR should prepare their bids from outside and leave BR free of interference from outsiders to put together its own bid.
428 The Government intend to vote down the Lords amendment for just one reason: they are afraid of the competition that BR would bring. They are afraid that, if BR is allowed to bid, it will provide better and cheaper services for the public. They are determined to destroy that possibility by means of their privatisation measure.
§ Mr. Tim Rathbone (Lewes)The opening speech of the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) slid into personal invective, which is the last resort of anyone without a rational argument on which to rely. If we needed further confirmation of the need for that guillotine motion, which I found unfortunate, the atrocious behaviour of Opposition Members provides it.
We must remind ourselves and the other place that yesterday's House of Commons majority of 34 confirmed the improvement that has been made to the Bill throughout its consideration on the Floor of the House of Commons, in Committee and in reaction to the previous set of Lords amendments.
The other place, however, has clearly misunderstood those changes—perhaps because it did not have time to consider them. I hope that it is considering them now. Certainly it was not given time to debate them, in contrast with the time allowed for discussion of the amendments tabled by my right hon. Friend and his colleagues.
The Lords amendment undercuts the whole principle of the level playing field to which numerous speakers on both sides of the House referred in yesterday's debate. It also undercuts true competition between the franchises. Such competition must be in the interests of more efficient rail services, which are more cost-effective for the taxpayer.
9.15 pm
I believe that a misunderstanding existed in all their Lordships' minds when they voted last night. That was confirmed by the comment made by Lord Marsh in a broadcast at 6 o'clock this evening. I heard what he said, and I was not relying on annunciator screens or television sets—I was there when he said it. He said that, under the House of Commons amendment, the SNCF, the German Bundesbahn or any other foreign railway could bid for a franchise while British Rail could not, but that is not true. The whole point of the amendments that we discussed yesterday was that British Rail would be allowed to bid, except—
§ Mr. RathboneNo, I will not give way. I hope that other hon. Members will have a chance to speak later.
British Rail will have a chance to bid, except when the franchising director believes that that is not in the interest of competition. That is the measure that we passed yesterday, and that is what went down the Corridor earlier today.
I believe that Ministers and the House considered the so-called Peyton amendments, as their Lordships wanted them to do. They concluded that those amendments themselves required amendment, made the necessary changes, and passed them back to their Lordships for consideration. I believe that we should pass them back yet again in a few moments' time.
§ Mr. Nick Harvey (North Devon)The Government face this problem for the first time in 16 years entirely because of their own incompetence and obstinacy. Their handling of the Bill has been deplorable throughout its 429 passage. They have tabled so many amendments to their own amendments—tabling them in Committee when the ink was hardly wet on the first lot—that they have almost used up an entire Amazonian rain forest.
There was a time when I believed that, however misguided and inherently evil Conservative Members might be, they at least understood how to run things, and were technically competent. I have come to realise that I completely misjudged them. They stand before the country exposed as the shambolic rabble that they undoubtedly are.
When the public learn of this evening's events, and the passage of this measure from one end of the corridor to the other, they will be in no doubt about who is speaking for the nation. Members of the other place come in without deferring to the Whips, and with no hope of promotion; they do not even need gongs, because most already have them. We have been reduced to observing the spectacle of those people speaking for the nation, not those who speak in this Chamber—the men of straw on the Conservative Benches who depend on the Whips for their prospects of promotion and patronage.
That is the position to which we have been reduced by the Government's shambolic conduct and a ridiculous measure which successive Secretaries of State for Transport have thought better than to introduce. The present Secretary of State, however, has insisted on pushing it through, at a deplorable cost to democracy and to his own electoral fortune. The Government will pay for that at the ballot box.
§ Mr. Brian Wilson (Cunninghame, North): I must make one small correction before I proceed, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I received the news of the Government's defeat; this afternoon, and I raised a point of order with Madam Speaker on the fact that the defeat had been on the pensions issue. Sadly, the defeat was not on the pensions issue, but on the franchise issue. I apologise for the fact that I inadvertently misled Madam Speaker this afternoon. That was the first time in the process of the Bill that I had a wrong piece of information. I think the whole of the British press were surprised when [said that the Government had been defeated on pensions rather than the franchises.
It was a glorious victory, however, which has thrown the Bill into total chaos and confusion and led to tonight's debate. It is the Secretary of State who has created the chaos and confusion—
§ Mr. Stephen Milligan (Eastleigh)Will the hon. Gentleman give way?
§ Mr. WilsonCertainly not. When the hon. Gentleman has the guts to vote for the pensioners in the Eastleigh works, I will give way to him.
Today's events represent the final humiliation for the Bill and for the Secretary of State and confirmation of the reality that there is no majority for the Bill in the country, where polls have revealed that opposition to it stands at 83 per cent. There is no majority for the Bill in the leader columns of the Tory press or in Tory local authorities—even though there are not many of those left—and there is no majority for it among British Rail managers, 90 per cent. of whom have expressed their opposition to it, contrary to the misrepresentation by the Secretary of State.
What we have seen tonight has been a constitutional outrage—I do not know the terminology used on these occasions—and a performance typical and worthy of the Government. Not only has the House and its right to debate 430 been trampled on; at the same time, the right to debate and consider legislation along the Corridor have been trampled on here. Some hon. Members who have been here for 30 years say that they have never seen anything like it; I have heard some Lords say that they have been in the other place for 70 years and never seen anything like it.
The Secretary of State again adduces the interests of railway managers. He insists that they want to run private railways, in spite of the arguments, the statistics and the evidence of a lack of positive support for that. One of the greatest wrongs committed by the Secretary of State is to misrepresent the railway managers. He is driving them into a position of becoming involved in buy-out bids, forcing them into taking out mortgages on their homes to take financial risks. He does not even have the guts to admit that he is doing that for political reasons. He is persistently taking in vain the names of people who, by statute and regulation, he forbids to answer back.
In the weeks ahead, I challenge the Secretary of State to tell the chairman of British Rail that all rail managers are to be free to speak openly about their views on this legislation and the appropriateness of management buy-outs. He will find that the 90 per cent. who have told the survey that they are opposed to rail privatisation will come to the fore. It is a disgrace to drive people into management buy-outs as a way of protecting their employment, and then to persist in the falsehood that the majority are anxious to do that.
There are many Tory voters among the railway managers, but the Opposition will continue to speak for the 90 per cent. of them who do not want anything to do with these buy-outs. The Government can speak for the 10 per cent. who do. We shall speak for the 90 per cent. of railway managers who want to continue to run a safe, integrated public railway—many of whom are to be denied the right to do so.
The hon. Member for Lewes (Mr. Rathbone) seemed, in his attempt to rationalise his own behaviour, under a serious misapprehension about what is in the Bill. Let there be no doubt: the state railways of Germany, France, Ireland and other countries will be in a position superior to that of British Rail if they choose to bid for BR franchises. None of those state railways will be subject to the four conditions that can be used by the franchise director to preclude British Rail involvement. [HON. MEMBERS: "Wrong."] I repeat that none of them will be subject to the conditions that can be used under the Secretary of State's direction to preclude BR's involvement.
There is a genuine question of competition at stake. No longer can Tory Ministers make up the rules as they go along. At some point they must answer to the laws of competition within a European context. One of the fixes in which the Government are engaging to try to encourage what remnant of private interest there may be is thus in contravention of European law—
§ Mr. RathboneThe hon. Gentleman does not understand the matter any better than the Lords do. The Bill will say that British Rail can enter into these franchises; it is only when there is no competition that the franchise director steps in.
§ Mr. WilsonI think that Lord Peyton and Lord Marsh, not to mention hon. Members here who understand the 431 Bill, have nothing to gain and nothing to hide—unlike those who engaged in a rebellion that collapsed before extracting a price.
The new Lords amendment offered the genuine compromise which the hon. Member for Lewes and others like him failed to obtain. I do not like the amendment, in the sense that British Rail could still be the lowest bidder but be excluded from a franchise by the director. At least that represented a major advance, however, in that British Rail would have a right to bid in every instance. Under what the Government continue to propose, BR will often be excluded—not because it is not good enough, but because Ministers know that if it is allowed to bid it will succeed.
The arguments will go on outside this House. The Government have lost the argument. They have lost their dignity and their credibility on this Bill. Today we read of the latest attempt to win over public support for the Bill. We are told that the Department of Transport plans to send a leaflet to every house in the country explaining the benefits of rail privatisation. Millions of pounds that could be used to run trains will be spent on a propaganda battle that the Government have already lost. The only result could be another threat to rail traffic: leaflets on the track.
The hon. Member for Hampshire, North-West (Sir D. Mitchell) spoke of a tourniquet around the throats of railway managers who want to bid. I have always understood that the purpose of a tourniquet is to stop bleeding and save lives. Rather, this is a knife in the back of British Rail, and the Government have placed it there tonight.
The debate goes on. It is understood in the country that rail privatisation equals higher fares, fewer services, and the loss of routes, of network benefits and of everything about the railway system that is widely understood in this country. The has-beens and never-weres on the Tory Benches can vote for the Government tonight and overturn the Lords amendment, but they will have to live with the consequences of their actions. Those consequences will be seen next year in the local government and European elections—and ultimately in the general election campaign, in which the future of the railways will play a major part.
Conservative Members can vote down the Lords amendment, but they cannot defeat the arguments. They have lost those arguments in the House. In the country, rail privatisation is discredited. This is the last hurrah for the Railways Bill. The battle goes on in the country from now on.
§ The Minister for Public Transport (Mr. Roger Freeman)I am happy to live with the consequences of the Railways Act, as it will become. I firmly believe, as does my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, that it will improve the quality of rail services, and that is the object of the exercise. Interestingly enough, tonight we have heard no reference whatsoever to passengers.
The purpose of the Bill is to improve the quality of service to passengers. It is not about preserving monopolies or preserving the rights of trade unions; it is about improving service to passengers.
The hon. Member for Cunninghame, North (Mr. Wilson) referred to a matter that was raised in another place. Let me deal with it now. There is no question of 432 printing 20 million leaflets to distribute to every household in the country. Hon. Members should not believe what they read in The Guardian; there are no such plans.
The hon. Member for York (Mr. Bayley) said that we cannot substantiate in debate our arguments. Not only have we had 190 hours of debate, but we have dealt with the issues at great length. We spent two and a half hours on amendment No. 31 and we won by a majority of 34. We debated specific issues concerning the responsibility of the franchising director. [Interruption.] Yes, we did. Perhaps the hon. Member for Stoke-on-Trent, North (Ms Walley) was not listening to the debate.
9.30 pm
We discussed when the franchising director would exercise his responsibilities under clause 22 in order to disqualify British Rail from bidding in certain circumstances.
I speak for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Transport—[Interruption.] I am trying to make a serious point.
In the Bill that we are considering tonight and when it receives Royal Assent, British Rail will be able to bid. My right hon. Friend and I firmly believe that British Rail—
§ Mr. George Stevenson (Stoke-on-Trent, South)Will the Minister give way?
§ Mr. FreemanNo. I was given only seven minutes and I must make my points.
British Rail will be allowed to bid in certain circumstances and it will undoubtedly win franchises. That was the intention of the House of Lords. We responded constructively and my right hon. Friend and I believe that that will happen.
Clause 22 gives the franchising director, at his own discretion, the right to determine, at the time of issuing the invitation to bid, whether British Rail is to be allowed to be one of those bidders.
The criteria for deciding whether British Rail should bid are clear. The franchising director has to decide whether allowing British Rail to bid would not promote the interests of management-employee buy-out bids that might confound new entry to the railway industry and would not in any way reduce the dominance of one supplier to the railway industry. That is what clause 22 said.
The Lords amendment that deletes "issue invitations to tender" and inserts "award a franchise" is wrong. We debated it at great length and there are two consequences that I believe the House will understand when it votes in a few minutes' time and use as reasons for rejecting the Lords amendments.
First, if the franchising director is allowed to determine that British Rail should not be a bidder at the time of awarding the franchise, that puts British Rail management in a hopeless position. Are they preparing a bid themselves —a management and employee buy-out bid—or are they preparing a bid for British Rail corporate? It is a hopeless position and the direct consequence of the Lords amendments would be to prevent management-employee bids either being prepared or bidding.
§ Mr. John Gunnell (Morley and Leeds, South)Will the Minister give way?
§ Mr. FreemanNo. Let me deal with the second consequence of the Lords amendments which we reject.
§ Mr. Derek Enright (Hemsworth)Get on to the passengers.
§ Mr. FreemanThe hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott) did not refer to passengers at all. [Interruption.] No, he did not. We are motivated by one clear aim—to improve the quality of service for the passengers.
The second reason why we must reject the Lords amendments is that, if the franchising director allows British Rail to prepare bids in all circumstances and then decides to disqualify it at the time of awarding the franchise—[Interruption.] I am speaking from the heart and the head also.
If we allow the franchising director to disqualify British Rail only at the final moment, at the award of the franchise, that would put off private sector bidders. They would undoubtedly be deterred by the cost and expense of preparing a bid, because they would face a state-owned company that is at present a monopoly. The net effect of the Lords amendment would be to deny the principal purpose of the Bill, which is to encourage and promote private sector interest in running passenger railways. That is what is in the Bill, and it is the prime purpose of our reforms—to introduce the benefits of additional capital and innovation.
The Opposition's real motivation tonight is nothing to do with the amendment; they are determined to preserve British Rail's monopoly. The hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East threatened to sack British Rail managers who participated in the bidding process, and the hon. Member for Cunninghame, North said that he would renationalise the rail industry. The Opposition are determined to do one thing, and the one thing alone—to preserve British Rail's monopoly. But we are interested in promoting the interests of passengers. I commend what my right hon. Friend said, and urge the House to reject the Lords amendment.
Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment:—
The House proceeded to a Division:—
Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. There appears to be some delay in the Lobby. Will the Serjeant at Arms please investigate?
§ Mr. Bob Dunn (Dartford)(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If this practice of delay in the No Lobby continues, can those responsible be named?
§ The House having divided: Ayes 301, Noes 260.
437| Division No. 395] | [9.35 pm |
| AYES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Banks, Robert (Harrogate) |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Bates, Michael |
| Alexander, Richard | Batiste, Spencer |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Beggs, Roy |
| Allason, Rupert (Torbay) | Bellingham, Henry |
| Amess, David | Bendall, Vivian |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Beresford, Sir Paul |
| Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Biffen, Rt Hon John |
| Ashby, David | Blackburn, Dr John G. |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Bonsor, Sir Nicholas |
| Atkins, Robert | Booth, Hartley |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Boswell, Tim |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) | Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia |
| Baldry, Tony | Bowden, Andrew |
| Banks, Matthew (Southport) | Bowis, John |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Grylls, Sir Michael |
| Brandreth, Gyles | Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn |
| Brazier, Julian | Hague, William |
| Bright, Graham | Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom) |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Browning, Mrs. Angela | Hannam, Sir John |
| Bruce, lan (S Dorset) | Hargreaves, Andrew |
| Budgen, Nicholas | Harris, David |
| Burns, Simon | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Burt, Alistair | Hawkins, Nick |
| Butler, Peter | Hawksley, Warren |
| Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Hayes, Jerry |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Heald, Oliver |
| Carrington, Matthew | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Cash, William | Hendry, Charles |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Chapman, Sydney | Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L. |
| Clappison, James | Hill, James (Southampton Test) |
| Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif) | Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) |
| Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Horam, John |
| Coe, Sebastian | Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Colvin, Michael | Howard, Rt Hon Michael |
| Congdon, David | Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) |
| Conway, Derek | Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) | Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Hunter, Andrew |
| Cope, Rt Hon Sir John | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Cormack, Patrick | Jack, Michael |
| Couchman, James | Jackson, Robert (Wantage) |
| Cran, James | Jenkin, Bernard |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) | Jessel, Toby |
| Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Davies, Quentin (Stamford) | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Davis, David (Boothferry) | Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr) |
| Deva, Nirj Joseph | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Devlin, Tim | Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine |
| Dicks, Terry | Key, Robert |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Kilfedder, Sir James |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | King, Rt Hon Tom |
| Dover, Den | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Duncan, Alan | Knapman, Roger |
| Duncan-Smith, lain | Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) |
| Dunn, Bob | Knight, Greg (Derby N) |
| Durant, Sir Anthony | Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) |
| Elletson, Harold | Knox, Sir David |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) | Kynoch, George (Kincardine) |
| Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) | Lait, Mrs Jacqui |
| Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) | Lamont, Rt Hon Norman |
| Evans, Roger (Monmouth) | Lang, Rt Hon Ian |
| Evennett, David | Lawrence, Sir Ivan |
| Faber, David | Legg, Barry |
| Fabricant, Michael | Leigh, Edward |
| Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas | Lennox-Boyd, Mark |
| Fenner, Dame Peggy | Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) |
| Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Lidington, David |
| Fishburn, Dudley | Lightbown, David |
| Forman, Nigel | Lilley, Rt Hon Peter |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) |
| Forth, Eric | Lord, Michael |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman | Luff, Peter |
| Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) | Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas |
| Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) | MacGregor, Rt Hon John |
| Freeman, Rt Hon Roger | MacKay, Andrew |
| French, Douglas | Maclean, David |
| Fry, Peter | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Gale, Roger | McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick |
| Gallie, Phil | Madel, David |
| Gardiner, Sir George | Maitland, Lady Olga |
| Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan | Major, Rt Hon John |
| Garnier, Edward | Malone, Gerald |
| Gill, Christopher | Mans, Keith |
| Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair | Martand, Paul |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Marlow, Tony |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Marshall, John (Hendon S) |
| Gorst, John | Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) |
| Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW) | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
| Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) | Mates, Michael |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) | Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick |
| Mellor, Rt Hon David | Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset) |
| Merchant, Piers | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Milligan, Stephen | Spink, Dr Robert |
| Mills, lain | Spring, Richard |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | Sproat, lain |
| Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) | Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) |
| Moate, Sir Roger | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Steen, Anthony |
| Moss, Malcolm | Stephen, Michael |
| Needham, Richard | Stern, Michael |
| Nelson, Anthony | Stewart, Allan |
| Neubert, Sir Michael | Streeter, Gary |
| Newton, Rt Hon Tony | Sumberg, David |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Sweeney, Walter |
| Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Sykes, John |
| Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Norris, Steve | Taylor, lan (Esher) |
| Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley | Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd) |
| Oppenheim, Phillip | Taylor, John M. (Solihull) |
| Ottaway, Richard | Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) |
| Page, Richard | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Paice, James | Thomason, Roy |
| Patnick, Irvine | Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V) |
| Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Pawsey, James | Thurnham, Peter |
| Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Pickles, Eric | Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th) |
| Porter, David (Waveney) | Tracey, Richard |
| Portillo, Rt Hon Michael | Tredinnick, David |
| Powell, William (Corby) | Trend, Michael |
| Rathbone, Tim | Trotter, Neville |
| Redwood, Rt Hon John | Twinn, Dr lan |
| Renton, Rt Hon Tim | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Richards, Rod | Viggers, Peter |
| Riddick, Graham | Waldegrave, Rt Hon William |
| Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm | Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
| Robathan, Andrew | Waller, Gary |
| Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn | Ward, John |
| Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Robinson, Mark (Somerton) | Waterson, Nigel |
| Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) | Watts, John |
| Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela | Whitney, Ray |
| Ryder, Rt Hon Richard | Whittingdale, John |
| Sackville, Tom | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim | Wilkinson, John |
| Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas | Willetts, David |
| Shaw, David (Dover) | Wilshire, David |
| Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) | Wolfson, Mark |
| Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian | Wood, Timothy |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Yeo, Tim |
| Shersby, Michael | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| Sims, Roger | |
| Skeet, Sir Trevor | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) | Mr. Robert G. Hughes and |
| Soames, Nicholas | Mr. James Arbuthnot |
| Spencer, Sir Derek | |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Bennett, Andrew F. |
| Adams, Mrs Irene | Benton, Joe |
| Ainger, Nick | Bermingham, Gerald |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Berry, Dr. Roger |
| Allen, Graham | Betts, Clive |
| Alton, David | Blair, Tony |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Blunkett, David |
| Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) | Boateng, Paul |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Bradley, Keith |
| Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy | Bray, Dr Jeremy |
| Ashton, Joe | Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) |
| Austin-Walker, John | Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Burden, Richard |
| Barnes, Harry | Byers, Stephen |
| Barron, Kevin | Callaghan, Jim |
| Battle, John | Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) |
| Bayley, Hugh | Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) |
| Beith, Rt Hon A. J. | Campbell-Savours, D. N. |
| Bell, Stuart | Canavan, Dennis |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Cann, Jamie |
| Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry) | Hughes, Roy (Newport E) |
| Chisholm, Malcolm | Hughes, Simon (Southwark) |
| Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Hutton, John |
| Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) |
| Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) | Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) |
| Clelland, David | Jamieson, David |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Janner, Greville |
| Coffey, Ann | Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) |
| Connarty, Michael | Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) |
| Cook, Robin (Livingston) | Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) |
| Corbett, Robin | Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Jowell, Tessa |
| Corston, Ms Jean | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Cryer, Bob | Keen, Alan |
| Cummings, John | Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Khabra, Piara S. |
| Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) | Kilfoyle, Peter |
| Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John | Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil (Islwyn) |
| Dafis, Cynog | Kirkwood, Archy |
| Darling, Alistair | Leighton, Ron |
| Davidson, lan | Lestor, Joan (Eccles) |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | Lewis, Terry |
| Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) | Livingstone, Ken |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l) | Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) |
| Denham, John | Llwyd, Elfyn |
| Dewar, Donald | Loyden, Eddie |
| Dixon, Don | Lynne, Ms Liz |
| Dobson, Frank | McAllion, John |
| Donohoe, Brian H. | McAvoy, Thomas |
| Dowd, Jim | McCrea, Rev William |
| Dunnachie, Jimmy | Macdonald, Calum |
| Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | McFall, John |
| Eagle, Ms Angela | McKelvey, William |
| Eastham, Ken | Mackinlay, Andrew |
| Enright, Derek | McLeish, Henry |
| Etherington, Bill | Maclennan, Robert |
| Evans, John (St Helens N) | McMaster, Gordon |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret | McNamara, Kevin |
| Faulds, Andrew | McWilliam, John |
| Field, Frank (Birkenhead) | Madden, Max |
| Fisher, Mark | Maddock, Mrs Diana |
| Flynn, Paul | Marek, Dr John |
| Foster, Rt Hon Derek | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
| Foster, Don (Bath) | Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) |
| Fraser, John | Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) |
| Fyfe, Maria | Martlew, Eric |
| Galloway, George | Maxton, John |
| Gapes, Mike | Meacher, Michael |
| Garrett, John | Michael, Alun |
| Gerrard, Neil | Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) |
| Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute) |
| Godman, Dr Norman A. | Milburn, Alan |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Miller, Andrew |
| Gordon, Mildred | Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) |
| Gould, Bryan | Morgan, Rhodri |
| Graham, Thomas | Moriey, Elliot |
| Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) | Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe) |
| Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
| Grocott, Bruce | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Gunnell, John | Mowlam, Marjorie |
| Hain, Peter | Mudie, George |
| Hall, Mike | Mullin, Chris |
| Hanson, David | Murphy, Paul |
| Harman, Ms Harriet | O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire) |
| Harvey, Nick | O'Hara, Edward |
| Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Olner, William |
| Henderson, Doug | O'Neill, Martin |
| Heppell, John | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Hill, Keith (Streatham) | Paisley, Rev lan |
| Hinchliffe, David | Parry, Robert |
| Hoey, Kate | Patchett, Terry |
| Home Robertson, John | Pendry, Tom |
| Hood, Jimmy | Pickthall, Colin |
| Hoon, Geoffrey | Pike, Peter L. |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Pope, Greg |
| Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Hoyle, Doug | Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E) |
| Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Prescott, John |
| Primarolo, Dawn | Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W) |
| Purchase, Ken | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Quin, Ms Joyce | Stevenson, George |
| Radice, Giles | Stott, Roger |
| Randall, Stuart | Strang, Dr. Gavin |
| Raynsford, Nick | Straw, Jack |
| Reid, Dr John | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Rendel, David | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Robertson, George (Hamilton) | Tipping, Paddy |
| Robinson, Peter (Belfast E) | Turner, Dennis |
| Roche, Mrs. Barbara | Tyler, Paul |
| Rogers, Allan | Wallace, James |
| Rooker, Jeff | Walley, Joan |
| Rooney, Terry | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) | Wareing, Robert N |
| Rowlands, Ted | Watson, Mike |
| Ruddock, Joan | Welsh, Andrew |
| Salmond, Alex | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Sedgemore, Brian | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) |
| Sheerman, Barry | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
| Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert | Wilson, Brian |
| Shore, Rt Hon Peter | Winnick, David |
| Short, Clare | Wise, Audrey |
| Simpson, Alan | Worthington, Tony |
| Skinner, Dennis | Wray, Jimmy |
| Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) | Wright, Dr Tony |
| Smith, Rt Hon John (M'kl'ds E) | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) | |
| Snape, Peter | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Soley, Clive | Mr. Alan Meale and |
| Spearing, Nigel | Mr. John Spellar |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Lords amendment to a Commons amendment in Lieu of a Lords amendment: 1B, in subsection (4) line 6, leave out from ("for") to end of subsection and insert ("selection as the franchisee.").
§ Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 289, Noes 261.
441| Division No. 396] | [9.35 pm |
| AYES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Browning, Mrs. Angela |
| Alexander, Richard | Bruce, lan (S Dorset) |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Budgen, Nicholas |
| Amess, David | Burns, Simon |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Burt, Alistair |
| Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Butler, Peter |
| Ashby, David | Carlisle, John (Luton North) |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) |
| Atkins, Robert | Carrington, Matthew |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Cash, William |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Channon, Rt Hon Paul |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) | Chapman, Sydney |
| Baldry, Tony | Clappison, James |
| Banks, Matthew (Southport) | Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif) |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey |
| Bates, Michael | Coe, Sebastian |
| Batiste, Spencer | Colvin, Michael |
| Beggs, Roy | Congdon, David |
| Bellingham, Henry | Conway, Derek |
| Bendall, Vivian | Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Coombs, Simon (Swindon) |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Cope, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Cormack, Patrick |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Couchman, James |
| Booth, Hartley | Cran, James |
| Boswell, Tim | Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) |
| Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia | Davies, Quentin (Stamford) |
| Bowden, Andrew | Davis, David (Boothferry) |
| Bowis, John | Deva, Nirj Joseph |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Devlin, Tim |
| Brandreth, Gyles | Dicks, Terry |
| Brazier, Julian | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Bright, Graham | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Dover, Den |
| Duncan, Alan | Knapman, Roger |
| Duncan-Smith, lain | Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) |
| Dunn, Bob | Knight, Greg (Derby N) |
| Durant, Sir Anthony | Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) |
| Elletson, Harold | Knox, Sir David |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) | Kynoch, George (Kincardine) |
| Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) | Lait, Mrs Jacqui |
| Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) | Lamont, Rt Hon Norman |
| Evans, Roger (Monmouth) | Lang, Rt Hon lan |
| Evennett, David | Lawrence, Sir Ivan |
| Faber, David | Legg, Barry |
| Fabricant, Michael | Leigh, Edward |
| Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas | Lennox-Boyd, Mark |
| Fenner, Dame Peggy | Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) |
| Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Lidington, David |
| Fishburn, Dudley | Lightbown, David |
| Forman, Nigel | Lilley, Rt Hon Peter |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) |
| Forth, Eric | Lord, Michael |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman | Luff, Peter |
| Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) | Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas |
| Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) | MacGregor, Rt Hon John |
| Freeman, Rt Hon Roger | MacKay, Andrew |
| French, Douglas | Maclean, David |
| Fry, Peter | McLoughlin, Patrick |
| Gale, Roger | McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick |
| Gallie, Phil | Madel, David |
| Gardiner, Sir George | Maitland, Lady Olga |
| Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan | Major, Rt Hon John |
| Garnier, Edward | Malone, Gerald |
| Gill, Christopher | Mans, Keith |
| Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair | Marland, Paul |
| Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles | Marlow, Tony |
| Gorman, Mrs Teresa | Marshall, John (Hendon S) |
| Gorst, John | Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) |
| Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW) | Martin, David (Portsmouth S) |
| Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Greenway, John (Ryedale) | Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) | Mellor, Rt Hon David |
| Grylls, Sir Michael | Merchant, Piers |
| Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn | Milligan, Stephen |
| Hague, William | Mills, lain |
| Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom) | Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) |
| Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) | Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) |
| Hanley, Jeremy | Moate, Sir Roger |
| Hannam, Sir John | Montgomery, Sir Fergus |
| Hargreaves, Andrew | Moss, Malcolm |
| Harris, David | Needham, Richard |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Nelson, Anthony |
| Hawkins, Nick | Neubert, Sir Michael |
| Hawksley, Warren | Newton, Rt Hon Tony |
| Hayes, Jerry | Nicholls, Patrick |
| Heald, Oliver | Nicholson, David (Taunton) |
| Heathcoat-Amory, David | Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) |
| Hendry, Charles | Norris, Steve |
| Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael | Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley |
| Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L. | Oppenheim, Phillip |
| Hill, James (Southampton Test) | Ottaway, Richard |
| Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) | Page, Richard |
| Horam, John | Paice, James |
| Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Patnick, Irvine |
| Howard, Rt Hon Michael | Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) | Pawsey, James |
| Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) | Pickles, Eric |
| Hunter, Andrew | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas | Portillo, Rt Hon Michael |
| Jack, Michael | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Jackson, Robert (Wantage) | Rathbone, Tim |
| Jenkin, Bernard | Redwood, Rt Hon John |
| Jessel, Toby | Renton, Rt Hon Tim |
| Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Richards, Rod |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Riddick, Graham |
| Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr) | Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Robathan, Andrew |
| Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine | Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn |
| Key, Robert | Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) |
| Kilfedder, Sir James | Robinson, Mark (Somerton) |
| King, Rt Hon Tom | Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) |
| Kirkhope, Timothy | Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) |
| Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela | Thomason, Roy |
| Ryder, Rt Hon Richard | Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V) |
| Sackville, Tom | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim | Thurnham, Peter |
| Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Shaw, David (Dover) | Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th) |
| Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) | Tracey, Richard |
| Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian | Tredinnick, David |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Trend, Michael |
| Shersby, Michael | Trotter, Neville |
| Sims, Roger | Twinn, Dr lan |
| Skeet, Sir Trevor | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) | Viggers, Peter |
| Soames, Nicholas | Waldegrave, Rt Hon William |
| Spencer, Sir Derek | Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
| Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset) | Waller, Gary |
| Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) | Ward, John |
| Spink, Dr Robert | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Spring, Richard | Waterson, Nigel |
| Sproat, lain | Watts, John |
| Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John | Whitney, Ray |
| Steen, Anthony | Whittingdale, John |
| Stephen, Michael | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Stern, Michael | Wilkinson, John |
| Stewart, Allan | Willetts, David |
| Streeter, Gary | Wilshire, David |
| Sumberg, David | Wolfson, Mark |
| Sweeney, Walter | Wood, Timothy |
| Sykes, John | Yeo, Tim |
| Tapsell, Sir Peter | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| Taylor, lan (Esher) | |
| Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd) | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Taylor, John M. (Solihull) | Mr. Robert G. Hughes and |
| Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) | Mr. James Arbuthnot |
| Temple-Morris, Peter | |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry) |
| Adams, Mrs Irene | Chisholm, Malcolm |
| Ainger, Nick | Clark, Dr David (South Shields) |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) |
| Allen, Graham | Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) |
| Alton, David | Clelland, David |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Clwyd, Mrs Ann |
| Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) | Coffey, Ann |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Connarty, Michael |
| Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy | Cook, Frank (Stockton N) |
| Ashton, Joe | Cook, Robin (Livingston) |
| Austin-Walker, John | Corbett, Robin |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Corbyn, Jeremy |
| Barnes, Harry | Corston, Ms Jean |
| Barron, Kevin | Cryer, Bob |
| Battle, John | Cummings, John |
| Bayley, Hugh | Cunliffe, Lawrence |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) |
| Beith, Rt Hon A. J. | Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Bell, Stuart | Dafis, Cynog |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Darling, Alistair |
| Bennett, Andrew F. | Davidson, lan |
| Benton, Joe | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) |
| Berry, Dr. Roger | Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l) |
| Betts, Clive | Denham, John |
| Blair, Tony | Dewar, Donald |
| Blunkett, David | Dixon, Don |
| Boateng, Paul | Dobson, Frank |
| Bradley, Keith | Donohoe, Brian H. |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Dowd, Jim |
| Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) | Dunnachie, Jimmy |
| Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) | Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth |
| Burden, Richard | Eagle, Ms Angela |
| Byers, Stephen | Eastham, Ken |
| Callaghan, Jim | Eggar, Tim |
| Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Enright, Derek |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Etherington, Bill |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Evans, John (St Helens N) |
| Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Ewing, Mrs Margaret |
| Canavan, Dennis | Faulds, Andrew |
| Cann, Jamie | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Fisher, Mark | Marek, Dr John |
| Flynn, Paul | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
| Foster, Rt Hon Derek | Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) |
| Foster, Don (Bath) | Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) |
| Fraser, John | Martlew, Eric |
| Fyfe, Maria | Maxton, John |
| Galloway, George | Meacher, Michael |
| Gapes, Mike | Meale, Alan |
| Garrett, John | Michael, Alun |
| Gerrard, Neil | Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) |
| Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute) |
| Godman, Dr Norman A. | Milburn, Alan |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Miller, Andrew |
| Gordon, Mildred | Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) |
| Gould, Bryan | Morgan, Rhodri |
| Graham, Thomas | Morley, Elliot |
| Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) | Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe) |
| Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
| Grocott, Bruce | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Gunnell, John | Mowlam, Marjorie |
| Hain, Peter | Mudie, George |
| Hall, Mike | Mullin, Chris |
| Hanson, David | Murphy, Paul |
| Harman, Ms Harriet | O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire) |
| Harvey, Nick | O'Hara, Edward |
| Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Olner, William |
| Henderson, Doug | O'Neill, Martin |
| Heppell, John | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Hill, Keith (Streatham) | Paisley, Rev lan |
| Hinchliffe, David | Parry, Robert |
| Hoey, Kate | Patchett, Terry |
| Home Robertson, John | Pendry, Tom |
| Hood, Jimmy | Pickthall, Colin |
| Hoon, Geoffrey | Pike, Peter L. |
| Howarth, George (Knowsley N) | Pope, Greg |
| Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Hoyle, Doug | Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E) |
| Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
| Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Prescott, John |
| Hughes, Roy (Newport E) | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Hughes, Simon (Southwark) | Purchase, Ken |
| Hutton, John | Quin, Ms Joyce |
| Illsley, Eric | Radice, Giles |
| Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) | Randall, Stuart |
| Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) | Raynsford, Nick |
| Jamieson, David | Reid, Dr John |
| Janner, Greville | Rendel, David |
| Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) | Robertson, George (Hamilton) |
| Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) | Robinson, Peter (Belfast E) |
| Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) | Roche, Mrs. Barbara |
| Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) | Rogers, Allan |
| Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) | Rooker, Jeff |
| Jowell, Tessa | Rooney, Terry |
| Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| Keen, Alan | Rowlands, Ted |
| Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) | Ruddock, Joan |
| Khabra, Piara S. | Salmond, Alex |
| Kirkwood, Archy | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Leighton, Ron | Sheerman, Barry |
| Lestor, Joan (Eccles) | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Lewis, Terry | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Livingstone, Ken | Short, Clare |
| Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) | Simpson, Alan |
| Llwyd, Elfyn | Skinner, Dennis |
| Loyden, Eddie | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
| Lynne, Ms Liz | Smith, Rt Hon John (M'kl'ds E) |
| McAllion, John | Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Snape, Peter |
| McCrea, Rev William | Soley, Clive |
| Macdonald, Calum | Spearing, Nigel |
| McFall, John | Spellar, John |
| McKelvey, William | Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W) |
| Mackinlay, Andrew | Steinberg, Gerry |
| McLeish, Henry | Stevenson, George |
| Maclennan, Robert | Stott, Roger |
| McMaster, Gordon | Strang, Dr. Gavin |
| McNamara, Kevin | Straw, Jack |
| McWilliam, John | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Madden, Max | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Maddock, Mrs Diana | Tipping, Paddy |
| Tyler, Paul | Wilson, Brain |
| Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold | Winnick, David |
| Wallace, James | Wise, Audrey |
| Walley, Joan | Worthington, Tony |
| Wardell, Garelh (Gower) | Wray, Jimmy |
| Wareing, Robert N | Wright, Dr Tony |
| Watson, Mike | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Welsh, Andrew | |
| Wicks, Malcolm | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) | Mr. Dennis Turner and |
| Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) | Mr. Peter Kilfoyle. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Question pur, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment:—
§ The House proceeded to a division—
Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. It has been reported to me that the wrong teller is in the Aye Lobby. This Division is off. I will put the Question again.
Question put, That this House doth disagree with the Lords in the said amendment:—
The House proceeded to a division—
§ Mr. Gyles Brandreth (City of Chester)(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It will have come to your attention that, during the course of this evening's debate, a number of hon. Members have been using delaying tactics in both the Lobbies. Indeed, you called the Serjeant at Arms to clear the Lobbies so that we could get on with the business of the House. Have you invited the Seijeant at Arms to note who those hon. Members are?
§ Mr. BrandrethFurther to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. If you have not considered doing so, and as the disruption is continuing, will you consider that possibility, because it is a little obstructive when we wish to proceed with the business before us?
§ Mr. Ernie Ross (Dundee, West)(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am extremely concerned. I am not sure whether I have been shunted into a siding, or whether I am still on the track. What happened in the last Division? Did a Conservative Member attempt to act as a Teller and vote at the same time?
Mr. Deputy SpeakerI can assure the hon. Gentleman that we are still on the track, and I am sure that he will eventually find out what happened.
§ Mr. James Paice (Cambridgeshire, South-East)(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I understand that, yet again, the Aye Lobby—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. PaiceI understand, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the Aye Lobby is empty yet again; yet proceedings in the No Lobby are again being delayed.
§ Mr. Mark Robinson (Somerton and Frome)(seated and covered): On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There still seems to be a blockage in the No Lobby.
Mr. Deputy SpeakerThere seems to be some delay in the No Lobby. I will send the Serjeant at Arms to investigate.
§ The House having divided: Ayes 301, Noes 258.
446| Division No. 397] | [10.20 pm |
| AYES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Dicks, Terry |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Alexander, Richard | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Dover, Den |
| Allason, Rupert (Torbay) | Duncan, Alan |
| Amess, David | Duncan-Smith, lain |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Dunn, Bob |
| Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Durant, Sir Anthony |
| Ashby, David | Elletson, Harold |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) |
| Atkins, Robert | Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Evans, Roger (Monmouth) |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) | Evennett, David |
| Baldry, Tony | Faber, David |
| Banks, Matthew (Southport) | Fabricant, Michael |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas |
| Bates, Michael | Fenner, Dame Peggy |
| Batiste, Spencer | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Beggs, Roy | Fishburn, Dudley |
| Bellingham, Henry | Forman, Nigel |
| Bendall, Vivian | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Forth, Eric |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) |
| Booth, Hartley | Freeman, Rt Hon Roger |
| Boswell, Tim | French, Douglas |
| Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | Fry, Peter |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia | Gale, Roger |
| Bowden, Andrew | Gallie, Phil |
| Bowis, John | Gardiner, Sir George |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan |
| Brandreth, Gyles | Garnier, Edward |
| Brazier, Julian | Gill, Christopher |
| Bright, Graham | Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) | Gorman, Mrs Teresa |
| Browning, Mrs. Angela | Gorst, John |
| Bruce, lan (S Dorset) | Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW) |
| Budgen, Nicholas | Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) |
| Burns, Simon | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Burt, Alistair | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) |
| Butler, Peter | Grylls, Sir Michael |
| Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hague, William |
| Carrington, Matthew | Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom) |
| Cash, William | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Chapman, Sydney | Hannam, Sir John |
| Clappison, James | Hargreaves, Andrew |
| Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif) | Harris, David |
| Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Coe, Sebastian | Hawkins, Nick |
| Colvin, Michael | Hawksley, Warren |
| Congdon, David | Hayes, Jerry |
| Conway, Derek | Heald, Oliver |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Hendry, Charles |
| Cope, Rt Hon Sir John | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Cormack, Patrick | Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L. |
| Couchman, James | Hill, James (Southampton Test) |
| Cran, James | Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) | Horam, John |
| Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) | Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Davies, Quentin (Stamford) | Howard, Rt Hon Michael |
| Davis, David (Boothferry) | Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A) |
| Deva, Nirj Joseph | Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) |
| Devlin, Tim | Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) |
| Hunter, Andrew | Pickles, Eric |
| Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Jack, Michael | Portillo, Rt Hon Michael |
| Jackson, Robert (Wantage) | Powell, William (Corby) |
| Jenkin, Bernard | Rathbone, Tim |
| Jessel, Toby | Redwood, Rt Hon John |
| Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Renton, Rt Hon Tim |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Richards, Rod |
| Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr) | Riddick, Graham |
| Jopling, Rt Mon Michael | Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm |
| Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine | Robathan, Andrew |
| Key, Robert | Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn |
| Kilfedder, Sir James | Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) |
| King, Rt Hon Tom | Robinson, Mark (Somerton) |
| Kirkhope, Timothy | Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) |
| Knapman, Roger | Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) |
| Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) | Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela |
| Knight, Greg (Derby N) | Ryder, Rt Hon Richard |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) | Sackville, Tom |
| Knox, Sir David | Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim |
| Kynoch, George (Kincardine) | Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Lait, Mrs Jacqui | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Lamont, Rt Hon Norman | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Lang, Rt Hon lan | Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian |
| Lawrence, Sir Ivan | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Legg, Barry | Shersby, Michael |
| Leigh, Edward | Sims, Roger |
| Lennox-Boyd, Mark | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Lidington, David | Soames, Nicholas |
| Lightbown, David | Spencer, Sir Derek |
| Lilley, Rt Hon Peter | Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset) |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Lord, Michael | Spink, Dr Robert |
| Luff, Peter | Spring, Richard |
| Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas | Sproat, lain |
| MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) |
| MacKay, Andrew | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Maclean, David | Steen, Anthony |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Stephen, Michael |
| McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick | Stern, Michael |
| Madel, David | Stewart, Allan |
| Maitland, Lady Olga | Streeter, Gary |
| Major, Rt Hon John | Sumberg, David |
| Malone, Gerald | Sweeney, Walter |
| Mans, Keith | Sykes, John |
| Marland, Paul | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Marlow, Tony | Taylor, lan (Esher) |
| Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd) |
| Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) | Taylor, John M. (Solihull) |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) |
| Mates, Michael | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Thomason, Roy |
| Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick | Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V) |
| Mellor, Rt Hon David | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Merchant, Piers | Thurnham, Peter |
| Milligan, Stephen | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Mills, lain | Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th) |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | Tracey, Richard |
| Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) | Tredinnick, David |
| Moate, Sir Roger | Trend, Michael |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Trotter, Neville |
| Moss, Malcolm | Twinn, Dr lan |
| Needham, Richard | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Nelson, Anthony | Viggers, Peter |
| Neubert, Sir Michael | Waldegrave, Rt Hon William |
| Newton, Rt Hon Tony | Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Waller, Gary |
| Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Ward, John |
| Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Norris, Steve | Waterson, Nigel |
| Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley | Watts, John |
| Oppenheim, Phillip | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Ottaway, Richard | Whitney, Ray |
| Page, Richard | Whittingdale, John |
| Paice, James | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Patnick, Irvine | Wilkinson, John |
| Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Willetts, David |
| Pawsey, James | Wilshire, David |
| Peacock. Mrs Elizabeth | Wolfson, Mark |
| Wood, Timothy | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Yeo, Tim | Mr. Robert G. Hughes and |
| Young, Rt Hon Sir George | Mr. James Arbuthnot. |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth |
| Adams, Mrs Irene | Eagle, Ms Angela |
| Ainger, Nick | Eastham, Ken |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Enright, Derek |
| Allen, Graham | Etherington, Bill |
| Alton, David | Evans, John (St Helens N) |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Ewing, Mrs Margaret |
| Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) | Faulds, Andrew |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy | Fisher, Mark |
| Ashton, Joe | Flynn, Paul |
| Austin-Walker, John | Foster, Rt Hon Derek |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Foster, Don (Bath) |
| Barnes, Harry | Fraser, John |
| Barron, Kevin | Fyfe, Maria |
| Battle, John | Galloway, George |
| Bayley, Hugh | Gapes, Mike |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Garrett, John |
| Beith, Rt Hon A. J. | Gerrard, Neil |
| Bell, Stuart | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Godman, Dr Norman A. |
| Bennett, Andrew F. | Golding, Mrs Llin |
| Benton, Joe | Gordon, Mildred |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Graham, Thomas |
| Berry, Dr. Roger | Grant, Bemie (Tottenham) |
| Betts, Clive | Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) |
| Blair, Tony | Grocott, Bruce |
| Blunkett, David | Gunnell, John |
| Boateng, Paul | Hain, Peter |
| Bradley, Keith | Hall, Mike |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Hanson, David |
| Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) | Harman, Ms Harriet |
| Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) | Harvey, Nick |
| Burden, Richard | Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy |
| Byers, Stephen | Henderson, Doug |
| Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Heppell, John |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Hill, Keith (Streatham) |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Hinchliffe, David |
| Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Hoey, Kate |
| Canavan, Dennis | Home Robertson, John |
| Cann, Jamie | Hood, Jimmy |
| Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry) | Hoon, Geoffrey |
| Chisholm, Malcolm | Howarth, George (Knowsley N) |
| Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) |
| Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Hoyle, Doug |
| Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) | Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) |
| Clelland, David | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Hughes, Roy (Newport E) |
| Coffey, Ann | Hughes, Simon (Southwark) |
| Connarty, Michael | Hutton, John |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) |
| Cook, Robin (Livingston) | Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) |
| Corbett, Robin | Jamieson, David |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Janner, Greville |
| Corston, Ms Jean | Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) |
| Cousins, Jim | Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) |
| Cryer, Bob | Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) |
| Cummings, John | Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) |
| Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) | Jowell, Tessa |
| Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Dafis, Cynog | Keen, Alan |
| Darling, Alistair | Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) |
| Davidson, lan | Khabra, Piara S. |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | Kilfoyle, Peter |
| Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) | Leighton, Ron |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'l) | Lestor, Joan (Eccles) |
| Denham, John | Lewis, Terry |
| Dewar, Donald | Livingstone, Ken |
| Dixon, Don | Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) |
| Dobson, Frank | Llwyd, Elfyn |
| Donohoe, Brian H. | Loyden, Eddie |
| Dowd, Jim | Lynne, Ms Liz |
| Dunnachie, Jimmy | McAllion, John |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Morley, Elliot |
| McCrea, Rev William | Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe) |
| Macdonald, Calum | Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
| McFall, John | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| McKelvey, William | Mowlam, Marjorie |
| Mackinlay, Andrew | Mudie, George |
| McLeish, Henry | Mullin, Chris |
| Maclennan, Robert | Murphy, Paul |
| McMaster, Gordon | O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire) |
| McNamara, Kevin | O'Hara, Edward |
| McWilliam, John | Olner, William |
| Madden, Max | O'Neill, Martin |
| Maddock, Mrs Diana | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Mandelson, Peter | Paisley, Rev Ian |
| Marek, Dr John | Parry, Robert |
| Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Patchett, Terry |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) | Pendry, Tom |
| Martin, Michael J.(Springburn) | Pickthall, Colin |
| Martlew, Eric | Pike, Peter L. |
| Maxton, John | Pope, Greg |
| Meacher, Michael | Powell, Ray (Ogmore) |
| Meale, Alan | Prentice, Ms Bridget(Lew'm E) |
| Michael, Alun | Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) |
| Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) | Prescott, John |
| Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute) | Primarolo, Dawn |
| Milburn, Alan | Purchase, Ken |
| Miller, Andrew | Quin, Ms Joyce |
| Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) | Radice, Giles |
| Morgan, Rhodri | Randall, Stuart |
| Raynsford, Nick | Stott, Roger |
| Reid, Dr John | Strang, Dr. Gavin |
| Rendel, David | Straw, Jack |
| Robertson, George (Hamilton) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Robinson, Peter (Belfast E) | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Roche, Mrs. Barbara | Tipping, Paddy |
| Rogers, Allan | Turner, Dennis |
| Rooker, Jeff | Tyler, Paul |
| Rooney, Terry | Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold |
| Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) | Wallace, James |
| Rowlands, Ted | Walley, Joan |
| Ruddock, Joan | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Sedgemore, Brian | Watson, Mike |
| Sheerman, Barry | Welsh, Andrew |
| Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Shore, Rt Hon Peter | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) |
| Short, Clare | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
| Simpson, Alan | Wilson, Brian |
| Skinner, Dennis | Winnick, David |
| Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) | Wise, Audrey |
| Smith, Rt Hon John (M'kl'ds E) | Worthington, Tony |
| Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) | Wray, Jimmy |
| Snape, Peter | Wright, Dr Tony |
| Soley, Clive | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Spearing, Nigel | |
| Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W) | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Steinberg, Gerry | Mr. Eric Illsley and |
| Stevenson, George | Mr. John Spellar |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
447
§
Motion made, and Question,
That a Committee be appointed to draw up reasons to be assigned to the Lords for disagreeing to their amendments to the amendment proposed by the Commons in lieu of amendment No. 31; that Mr. Michael Brown, Mr. Alex Carlile, Mr. Roger Freeman, Mr. Secretary MacGregor and Mr. Brian Wilson be the members of the Committee; that three be the quorum; that the Committee do withdraw immediately.—[Mr. MacGregor.]
put forthwith pursuant to Order [2 November]:—
The House proceeded to a Division—
§ Madam SpeakerSerjeant, would you inspect the No Lobby? I understand that there is a blockage there, and I want it removed immediately.
§ Mr. John Marshall (Hendon, South)On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I apologise for the headgear, but I understand—
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. When I am in the Chair, the hon. Gentleman must wear a hat. He will look far more handsome.
§ Mr. Marshall(seated and covered): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I understand that there are now blockages in both Lobbies.
§ Madam SpeakerThat makes it even, then. Will the Serjeant at Arms inspect the Aye Lobby?
§ Mr. Alun Michael (Cardiff, South and Penarth)(seated and covered): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. Earlier tonight the question was asked why the bells did not ring when an earlier Division was called. It appears that the Serjeant at Arms is able to go into the Lobbies to ask Members to come out, but not to sort out why the bells did not ring or say whether they will ring on future occasions. Is it not appropriate that the Serjeant at Arms should be able to tell us that the bells will ring when they should so that everyone is aware when the Division is called?
§ Madam SpeakerThe hon. Gentleman should not trouble himself, because I intend to find out tomorrow whether the bells rang or not.
§ The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Tony Newton)(seated and covered): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. I wish to make the point that yesterday I was accused of constitutional outrage for moving a timetable motion on this Bill. It should be registered that what we are experiencing tonight is a constitutional outrage—[Interruption]—and I hope that you will decide to have the matter thoroughly investigated.
§ Madam SpeakerAs the right hon. Gentleman and the House are aware, I am always prepared to defend this House nationally and internationally when it is robust and when it has quality debate and quality argument. I cannot defend it when it is in a state of disorder.
§ The House having divided: Ayes 315, Noes 244.
451| Division No. 398] | [10.42 |
| AYES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Ashby, David |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy |
| Alexander, Richard | Aspinwall, Jack |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Atkins, Robert |
| Allason, Rupert (Torbay) | Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) |
| Alton, David | Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) |
| Amess, David | Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Baldry, Tony |
| Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Banks, Matthew (Southport) |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) |
| Bates, Michael | Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) |
| Batiste, Spencer | Freeman, Rt Hon Roger |
| Beggs, Roy | French, Douglas |
| Beith, Rt Hon A. J. | Fry, Peter |
| Bellingham, Henry | Gale, Roger |
| Bendall, Vivian | Gallie, Phil |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Gardiner, Sir George |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Garnier, Edward |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Gill, Christopher |
| Booth, Hartley | Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair |
| Boswell, Tim | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | Gorman, Mrs Teresa |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia | Gorst, John |
| Bowden, Andrew | Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW) |
| Bowis, John | Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Brandreth, Gyles | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) |
| Brazier, Julian | Grylls, Sir Michael |
| Bright, Graham | Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Hague, William |
| Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) | Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom) |
| Browning, Mrs. Angela | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Budgen, Nicholas | Hannam, Sir John |
| Burns, Simon | Hargreaves, Andrew |
| Burt, Alistair | Harris, David |
| Butler, Peter | Harvey, Nick |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Hawkins, Nick |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hawksley, Warren |
| Carrington, Matthew | Hayes, Jerry |
| Cash, William | Heald, Oliver |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Chapman, Sydney | Hendry, Charles |
| Clappison, James | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif) | Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L. |
| Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Hill, James (Southampton Test) |
| Coe, Sebastian | Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) |
| Colvin, Michael | Horam, John |
| Congdon, David | Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter |
| Conway, Derek | Howard, Rt Hon Michael |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) | Howarth, Alan (Strafrd-on-A) |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) |
| Cope, Rt Hon Sir John | Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) |
| Cormack, Patrick | Hunter, Andrew |
| Couchman, James | Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Cran, James | Jack, Michael |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) | Jackson, Robert (Wantage) |
| Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) | Jenkin, Bernard |
| Davies, Quentin (Stamford) | Jessel, Toby |
| Davis, David (Boothferry) | Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey |
| Deva, Nirj Joseph | Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) |
| Devlin, Tim | Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr) |
| Dicks, Terry | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Key, Robert |
| Dover, Den | Kilfedder, Sir James |
| Duncan, Alan | King, Rt Hon Tom |
| Duncan-Smith, lain | Kirkhope, Timothy |
| Dunn, Bob | Knapman, Roger |
| Durant, Sir Anthony | Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) |
| Elletson, Harold | Knight, Greg (Derby N) |
| Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) | Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) |
| Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) | Knox, Sir David |
| Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) | Kynoch, George (Kincardine) |
| Evans, Roger (Monmouth) | Lait, Mrs Jacqui |
| Evennett, David | Lamont, Rt Hon Norman |
| Faber, David | Lang, Rt Hon Ian |
| Fabricant, Michael | Lawrence, Sir Ivan |
| Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas | Legg, Barry |
| Fenner, Dame Peggy | Leigh, Edward |
| Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) | Lennox-Boyd, Mark |
| Fishburn, Dudley | Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) |
| Forman, Nigel | Lidington, David |
| Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) | Lightbown, David |
| Forth, Eric | Lilley, Rt Hon Peter |
| Foster, Don (Bath) | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman | Lord, Michael |
| Luff, Peter | Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Lynne, Ms Liz | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| MacGregor, Rt Hon John | Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian |
| MacKay, Andrew | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Maclean, David | Shersby, Michael |
| Maclennan, Robert | Sims, Roger |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Maddock, Mrs Diana | Soames, Nicholas |
| Madel, David | Spencer, Sir Derek |
| Maitland, Lady Olga | Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset) |
| Major, Rt Hon John | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Malone, Gerald | Spink, Dr Robert |
| Mans, Keith | Spring, Richard |
| Marland, Paul | Sproat, lain |
| Marlow, Tony | Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) |
| Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) | Steen, Anthony |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Stephen, Michael |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Stern, Michael |
| Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick | Stewart, Allan |
| Mellor, Rt Hon David | Streeter, Gary |
| Merchant, Piers | Sumberg, David |
| Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute) | Sweeney, Walter |
| Milligan, Stephen | Sykes, John |
| Mills, lain | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | Taylor, Ian (Esher) |
| Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) | Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd) |
| Moate, Sir Roger | Taylor, John M. (Solihull) |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Moss, Malcolm | Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) |
| Needham, Richard | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Nelson, Anthony | Thomason, Roy |
| Neubert, Sir Michael | Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V) |
| Newton, Rt Hon Tony | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Thurnham, Peter |
| Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th) |
| Norris, Steve | Tracey, Richard |
| Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley | Tredinnick, David |
| Oppenheim, Phillip | Trend, Michael |
| Ottaway, Richard | Trotter, Neville |
| Page, Richard | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Paice, James | Tyler, Paul |
| Patnick, Irvine | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Viggers, Peter |
| Pawsey, James | Waldegrave, Rt Hon William |
| Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth | Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
| Pickles, Eric | Wallace, James |
| Porter, David (Waveney) | Waller, Gary |
| Portillo, Rt Hon Michael | Ward, John |
| Powell, William (Corby) | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Rathbone, Tim | Waterson, Nigel |
| Redwood, Rt Hon John | Watts, John |
| Rendel, David | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Renton, Rt Hon Tim | Whitney, Ray |
| Richards, Rod | Whittingdale, John |
| Riddick, Graham | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm | Wilkinson, John |
| Robathan, Andrew | Willetts, David |
| Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn | Wilshire, David |
| Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) | Wolfson, Mark |
| Robinson, Mark (Somerton) | Wood, Timothy |
| Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) | Yeo, Tim |
| Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) | Young, Rt Hon Sir George |
| Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela | |
| Ryder, Rt Hon Richard | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Sackville, Tom | Mr. Robert G. Hughes and |
| Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim | Mr. James Arbuthnot |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Ashton, Joe |
| Adams, Mrs Irene | Austin-Walker, John |
| Ainger, Nick | Banks, Tony (Newham NW) |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Barnes, Harry |
| Allen, Graham | Barron, Kevin |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Battle, John |
| Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) | Bayley, Hugh |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Bell, Stuart | Grocott, Bruce |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Gunnell, John |
| Bennett, Andrew F. | Hain, Peter |
| Benton, Joe | Hall, Mike |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Hanson, David |
| Berry, Dr. Roger | Harman, Ms Harriet |
| Betts, Clive | Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy |
| Blair, Tony | Henderson, Doug |
| Blunkett, David | Heppell, John |
| Boateng, Paul | Hill, Keith (Streatham) |
| Bradley, Keith | Hinchliffe, David |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Hoey, Kate |
| Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) | Home Robertson, John |
| Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) | Hood, Jimmy |
| Burden, Richard | Hoon, Geoffrey |
| Byers, Stephen | Howarth, George (Knowsley N) |
| Callaghan, Jim | Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) |
| Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) | Hoyle, Doug |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) |
| Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Canavan, Dennis | Hughes, Roy (Newport E) |
| Cann, Jamie | Hughes, Simon (Southwark) |
| Chisholm, Malcolm | Hutton, John |
| Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) |
| Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Jackson, Helen (Shefld, H) |
| Clarke, Tom (Monklands W) | Jamieson, David |
| Clelland, David | Janner, Greville |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Jones, Barry (Alyn and D'side) |
| Coffey, Ann | Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) |
| Connarty, Michael | Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) |
| Cook, Robin (Livingston) | Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) |
| Corbett, Robin | Jowell, Tessa |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Corston, Ms Jean | Keen, Alan |
| Cousins, Jim | Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) |
| Cox, Tom | Khabra, Piara S. |
| Cryer, Bob | Kilfoyle, Peter |
| Cummings, John | Leighton, Ron |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Lestor, Joan (Eccles) |
| Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) | Lewis, Terry |
| Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John | Livingstone, Ken |
| Dafis, Cynog | Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) |
| Darling, Alistair | Llwyd, Elfyn |
| Davidson, Ian | Loyden, Eddie |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | McAllion, John |
| Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) | McAvoy, Thomas |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'I) | McCrea, Rev William |
| Denham, John | Macdonald, Calum |
| Dewar, Donald | McFall, John |
| Dixon, Don | McKelvey, William |
| Dobson, Frank | Mackinlay, Andrew |
| Donohoe, Brian H. | McLeish, Henry |
| Dowd, Jim | McMaster, Gordon |
| Dunnachie, Jimmy | McNamara, Kevin |
| Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | McWilliam, John |
| Eagle, Ms Angela | Madden, Max |
| Eastham, Ken | Mandelson, Peter |
| Enright, Derek | Marek, Dr John |
| Etherington, Bill | Marshall, David (Shettleston) |
| Evans, John (St Helens N) | Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S) |
| Ewing, Mrs Margaret | Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) |
| Faulds, Andrew | Martlew, Eric |
| Field, Frank (Birkenhead) | Maxton, John |
| Fisher, Mark | Meacher, Michael |
| Flynn, Paul | Meale, Alan |
| Foster, Rt Hon Derek | Michael, Alun |
| Fraser, John | Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) |
| Fyfe, Maria | Milburn, Alan |
| Galloway, George | Miller, Andrew |
| Gapes, Mike | Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) |
| Garrett, John | Morgan, Rhodri |
| Gerrard, Neil | Morley, Elliot |
| Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe) |
| Godman, Dr Norman A. | Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) |
| Golding, Mrs Llin | Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) |
| Gordon, Mildred | Mowlam, Marjorie |
| Graham, Thomas | Mudie, George |
| Grant, Bemie (Tottenham) | Mullin, Chris |
| Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) | Murphy, Paul |
| O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire) | Simpson, Alan |
| O'Hara, Edward | Skinner, Dennis |
| Olner, William | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
| O'Neill, Martin | Smith, Rt Hon John (M'kl'ds E) |
| Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) |
| Paisley, Rev Ian | Snape, Peter |
| Patchett, Terry | Soley, Clive |
| Pendry, Tom | Spearing, Nigel |
| Pickthall, Colin | Spellar, John |
| Pike, Peter L. | Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W) |
| Pope, Greg | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Powell, Ray (Ogmore) | Stevenson, George |
| Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E) | Stott, Roger |
| Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) | Strang, Dr. Gavin |
| Prescott, John | Straw, Jack |
| Primarolo, Dawn | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Purchase, Ken | Tipping, Paddy |
| Quin, Ms Joyce | Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold |
| Radice, Giles | Walley, Joan |
| Randall, Stuart | Wardell, Gareth (Gower) |
| Raynsford, Nick | Wareing, Robert N |
| Reid, Dr John | Watson, Mike |
| Robertson, George (Hamilton) | Welsh, Andrew |
| Robinson, Peter (Belfast E) | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Roche, Mrs. Barbara | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) |
| Rogers, Allan | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
| Rooker, Jeff | Winnick, David |
| Rooney, Terry | Wise, Audrey |
| Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) | Worthington, Tony |
| Rowlands, Ted | Wray, Jimmy |
| Ruddock, Joan | Wright, Dr Tony |
| Sedgemore, Brian | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Sheerman, Barry | |
| Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Shore, Rt Hon Peter | Mr. Dennis Turner and |
| Short, Clare | Mr. Eric Illsley. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.