§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Value Added Tax (Beverages) Order 1993 (S.I., 1993, No. 2498), which was laid before this House on 18th October, be approved.—[Mr. Conway.]
§ 11.1 pm
§ Sir Teddy Taylor (Southend, East)On a point of order, Madam Speaker. [HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, no."] It is rather important that hon. Members should appreciate this. I submit that it is not in order for the House to consider this VAT order because the appropriate papers are not in legible form and are not available to hon. Members.
The order was considered only yesterday by a Standing Committee and it appears to be designed to apply VAT at 17.5 per cent. to fresh orange juice. That would increase the price of a litre bottle of this important national food by—
§ Madam SpeakerOrder. I understand the hon. Gentleman's concern about the matter and I am prepared to listen to a point of order, but not to an argument. The motion is not debatable. If the hon. Gentleman puts a point of order to me, I will deal with it.
§ Sir Teddy TaylorI was simply pointing out that the order is rather important.
The order is not printed in the normal form. It appears to have been typed and photocopied. At the foot of the explanatory note, there is a reference to a paragraph of schedule 6 of a Finance Act the date of which cannot be deciphered. Another document is referred to as 1988/507, but its title is also illegible. The date of the order cannot be read, apart from the fact that it is 1993.
I understand that matters can be considered by the House only if the appropriate papers are provided to hon. Members. I suggest that we cannot consider the VAT order when the appropriate papers cannot be read in some parts and when the references cannot be read. I supplied your office with a copy of the order and I suggest that it is not in accordance with the proceedings of the House if hon. Members are asked to vote on a document that cannot be read properly.
§ Madam SpeakerThe hon. Gentleman has made the point himself. The document was considered yesterday by a Statutory Instruments Committee. I realise that it is a bit fingerprinted and mucky, but the Chairman of the Committee and the Committee members could understand it. If the hon. Gentleman really tried hard, I am sure that he could manage to read it.
Question put:—
The House proceeded to a Division—
§ Mr. Simon Hughes (Southwark and Bermondsey)(seated and covered): On a point of order, Madam Speaker. As you know, there is a vote in progress and, as you also know, behind you the Committee is drawing up the reasons for our disagreement to send to the other place. Apparently, the members of that Committee are not being allowed out to vote in this Division and, apparently, there is coming and going and toing and froing of people not on the Committee who are requesting the attendance of the Clerk of the House and, therefore, I assume, interfering with that Committee's right to make its decisions. All that I am seeking is a ruling that, if any member of the Committee should want to vote, the Committee should adjourn to 453 allow them to do so, and, secondly, that the Committee be allowed to carry on its business without interference from other hon. Members or Officers of the House.
§ Madam SpeakerI do not interfere in the affairs of the Committee, but I am very surprised that any Member should be attempting to enter the room in which the Committee is deliberating. Far be it from me to try to enter that room. I hope that if any Members try to get in there they will be turned out.
§ The House having divided: Ayes 292, Noes 247.
456| Division No. 399] | [11.08 pm |
| AYES | |
| Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) | Deva, Nirj Joseph |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Devlin, Tim |
| Alexander, Richard | Dicks, Terry |
| Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Allason, Rupert (Torbay) | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James |
| Amess, David | Dover, Den |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Duncan, Alan |
| Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) | Duncan-Smith, Iain |
| Ashby, David | Dunn, Bob |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Durant, Sir Anthony |
| Atkins, Robert | Elletson, Harold |
| Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) | Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield) |
| Baker, Rt Hon K. (Mole Valley) | Evans, Jonathan (Brecon) |
| Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) | Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley) |
| Baldry, Tony | Evans, Roger (Monmouth) |
| Banks, Matthew (Southport) | Evennett, David |
| Banks, Robert (Harrogate) | Faber, David |
| Bates, Michael | Fabricant, Michael |
| Batiste, Spencer | Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas |
| Bellingham, Henry | Field, Barry (Isle of Wight) |
| Bendall, Vivian | Fishburn, Dudley |
| Beresford, Sir Paul | Forman, Nigel |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Forsyth, Michael (Stirling) |
| Blackburn, Dr John G. | Forth, Eric |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Fowler, Rt Hon Sir Norman |
| Booth, Hartley | Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring) |
| Boswell, Tim | Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley) |
| Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) | French, Douglas |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia | Fry, Peter |
| Bowden, Andrew | Gale, Roger |
| Bowis, John | Gallie, Phil |
| Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes | Gardiner, Sir George |
| Brandreth, Gyles | Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan |
| Brazier, Julian | Garnier, Edward |
| Bright, Graham | Gill, Christopher |
| Brooke, Rt Hon Peter | Goodlad, Rt Hon Alastair |
| Browning, Mrs. Angela | Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles |
| Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) | Gorman, Mrs Teresa |
| Budgen, Nicholas | Gorst, John |
| Burns, Simon | Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW) |
| Burt, Alistair | Greenway, Harry (Ealing N) |
| Butler, Peter | Greenway, John (Ryedale) |
| Carlisle, John (Luton North) | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N) |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Grylls, Sir Michael |
| Carrington, Matthew | Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn |
| Channon, Rt Hon Paul | Hague, William |
| Chapman, Sydney | Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom) |
| Clappison, James | Hamilton, Neil (Tatton) |
| Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif) | Hanley, Jeremy |
| Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey | Hannam, Sir John |
| Coe, Sebastian | Hargreaves, Andrew |
| Colvin, Michael | Harris, David |
| Congdon, David | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Conway, Derek | Hawkins, Nick |
| Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) | Hawksley, Warren |
| Coombs, Simon (Swindon) | Hayes, Jerry |
| Cope, Rt Hon Sir John | Heald, Oliver |
| Cormack, Patrick | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Couchman, James | Hendry, Charles |
| Cran, James | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael |
| Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) | Hicks, Robert |
| Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) | Hill, James (Southampton Test) |
| Davies, Quentin (Stamford) | Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham) |
| Davis, David (Boothferry) | Horam, John |
| Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter | Patnick, Irvine |
| Howard, Rt Hon Michael | Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Howarth, Alan (Strafrd-on-A) | Pawsey, James |
| Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W) | Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth |
| Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W) | Pickles, Eric |
| Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne) | Porter, David (Waveney) |
| Hunter, Andrew | Portillo, Rt Hon Michael |
| Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas | Rathbone, Tim |
| Jack, Michael | Redwood, Rt Hon John |
| Jackson, Robert (Wantage) | Renton, Rt Hon Tim |
| Jenkin, Bernard | Richards, Rod |
| Jessel, Toby | Riddick, Graham |
| Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey | Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm |
| Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N) | Robathan, Andrew |
| Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr) | Roberts, Rt Hon Sir Wyn |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) |
| Kellett-Bowman, Dame Elaine | Robinson, Mark (Somerton) |
| Key, Robert | Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) |
| Kilfedder, Sir James | Rowe, Andrew (Mid Kent) |
| King, Rt Hon Tom | Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela |
| Kirkhope, Timothy | Ryder, Rt Hon Richard |
| Knapman, Roger | Sackville, Tom |
| Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash) | Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim |
| Knight, Greg (Derby N) | Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas |
| Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) | Shaw, David (Dover) |
| Knox, Sir David | Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey) |
| Kynoch, George (Kincardine) | Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian |
| Lait, Mrs Jacqui | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Lamont, Rt Hon Norman | Shersby, Michael |
| Lang, Rt Hon Ian | Sims, Roger |
| Lawrence, Sir Ivan | Skeet, Sir Trevor |
| Legg, Barry | Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) |
| Leigh, Edward | Soames, Nicholas |
| Lennox-Boyd, Mark | Spencer, Sir Derek |
| Lester, Jim (Broxtowe) | Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset) |
| Lidington, David | Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) |
| Lightbown, David | Spink, Dr Robert |
| Lilley, Rt Hon Peter | Spring, Richard |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Sproat, lain |
| Lord, Michael | Squire, Robin (Hornchurch) |
| Luff, Peter | Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas | Steen, Anthony |
| MacKay, Andrew | Stephen, Michael |
| Maclean, David | Stern, Michael |
| McLoughlin, Patrick | Stewart, Allan |
| McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick | Streeter, Gary |
| Madel, David | Sumberg, David |
| Maitland, Lady Olga | Sweeney, Walter |
| Major, Rt Hon John | Sykes, John |
| Malone, Gerald | Tapsell, Sir Peter |
| Mans, Keith | Taylor, Ian (Esher) |
| Marlow, Tony | Taylor, John M. (Solihull) |
| Marshall, John (Hendon S) | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) | Thomason, Roy |
| Martin, David (Portsmouth S) | Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V) |
| Mates, Michael | Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N) |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Thurnham, Peter |
| Mayhew, Rt Hon Sir Patrick | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Mellor, Rt Hon David | Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th) |
| Merchant, Piers | Tracey, Richard |
| Milligan, Stephen | Tredinnick, David |
| Mills, lain | Trend, Michael |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | Trotter, Neville |
| Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| Moate, Sir Roger | Vaughan, Sir Gerard |
| Montgomery, Sir Fergus | Viggers, Peter |
| Moss, Malcolm | Waldegrave, Rt Hon William |
| Needham, Richard | Walden, George |
| Nelson, Anthony | Walker, Bill (N Tayside) |
| Neubert, Sir Michael | Waller, Gary |
| Newton, Rt Hon Tony | Ward, John |
| Nicholls, Patrick | Wardle, Charles (Bexhill) |
| Nicholson, David (Taunton) | Waterson, Nigel |
| Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) | Watts, John |
| Norris, Steve | Wheeler, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley | Whitney, Ray |
| Oppenheim, Phillip | Whittingdale, John |
| Ottaway, Richard | Widdecombe, Ann |
| Page, Richard | Wilkinson, John |
| Paice, James | Willetts, David |
| Wilshire, David | |
| Wolfson, Mark | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Yeo, Tim | Mr. Timothy Wood and |
| Young, Rt Hon Sir George | Mr. James Arbuthnot. |
| NOES | |
| Abbott, Ms Diane | Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth |
| Adams, Mrs Irene | Eagle, Ms Angela |
| Ainger, Nick | Eastham, Ken |
| Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) | Enright, Derek |
| Allen, Graham | Etherington, Bill |
| Alton, David | Evans, John (St Helens N) |
| Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) | Ewing, Mrs Margaret |
| Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) | Faulds, Andrew |
| Armstrong, Hilary | Field, Frank (Birkenhead) |
| Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy | Fisher, Mark |
| Ashton, Joe | Flynn, Paul |
| Austin-Walker, John | Foster, Rt Hon Derek |
| Banks, Tony (Newham NW) | Foster, Don (Bath) |
| Barnes, Harry | Fraser, John |
| Barron, Kevin | Fyfe, Maria |
| Battle, John | Galloway, George |
| Bayley, Hugh | Gapes, Mike |
| Beckett, Rt Hon Margaret | Garrett, John |
| Beggs, Roy | Gerrard, Neil |
| Beith, Rt Hon A. J. | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John |
| Bell, Stuart | Godman, Dr Norman A. |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Golding, Mrs Llin |
| Bennett, Andrew F. | Gordon, Mildred |
| Benton, Joe | Graham, Thomas |
| Bermingham, Gerald | Grant, Bernie (Tottenham) |
| Betts, Clive | Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) |
| Blair, Tony | Grocott, Bruce |
| Blunkett, David | Gunnell, John |
| Boateng, Paul | Hain, Peter |
| Bradley, Keith | Hall, Mike |
| Brown, Gordon (Dunfermline E) | Hanson, David |
| Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) | Harman, Ms Harriet |
| Burden, Richard | Harvey, Nick |
| Byers, Stephen | Henderson, Doug |
| Callaghan, Jim | Heppell, John |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Hill, Keith (Streatham) |
| Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) | Hinchliffe, David |
| Campbell-Savours, D. N. | Hoey, Kate |
| Canavan, Dennis | Home Robertson, John |
| Cann, Jamie | Hood, Jimmy |
| Chisholm, Malcolm | Hoon, Geoffrey |
| Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Howarth, George (Knowsley N) |
| Clarke, Eric (Midlothian) | Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) |
| Clelland, David | Hoyle, Doug |
| Clwyd, Mrs Ann | Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) |
| Coffey, Ann | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Connarty, Michael | Hughes, Roy (Newport E) |
| Cook, Frank (Stockton N) | Hughes, Simon (Southwark) |
| Corbett, Robin | Hutton, John |
| Corbyn, Jeremy | Jackson, Glenda (H'stead) |
| Corston, Ms Jean | Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) |
| Cousins, Jim | Jamieson, David |
| Cox, Tom | Janner, Greville |
| Cryer, Bob | Jones, Jon Owen (Cardiff C) |
| Cummings, John | Jones, Lynne (B'ham S O) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Jones, Martyn (Clwyd, SW) |
| Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) | Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham) |
| Cunningham, Rt Hon Dr John | Jowell, Tessa |
| Dafis, Cynog | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Darling, Alistair | Keen, Alan |
| Davidson, Ian | Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | Khabra, Piara S. |
| Davis, Terry (B'ham, H'dge H'I) | Kilfoyle, Peter |
| Denham, John | Lestor, Joan (Eccles) |
| Dewar, Donald | Lewis, Terry |
| Dixon, Don | Livingstone, Ken |
| Dobson, Frank | Lloyd, Tony (Stretford) |
| Donohoe, Brian H. | Llwyd, Elfyn |
| Dowd, Jim | Loyden, Eddie |
| Dunnachie, Jimmy | Lynne, Ms Liz |
| McAllion, John | Reid, Dr John |
| McAvoy, Thomas | Rendel, David |
| McCrea, Rev William | Robertson, George (Hamilton) |
| Macdonald, Calum | Robinson, Peter (Belfast E) |
| McFall, John | Roche, Mrs. Barbara |
| McKelvey, William | Rogers, Allan |
| McLeish, Henry | Rooker, Jeff |
| McMaster, Gordon | Ross, Ernie (Dundee W) |
| McNamara, Kevin | Rowlands, Ted |
| McWilliam, John | Ruddock, Joan |
| Madden, Max | Sedgemore, Brian |
| Maddock, Mrs Diana | Sheerman, Barry |
| Mandelson, Peter | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert |
| Marek, Dr John | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge) |
| Marshall, David (Shettleston) | Shore, Rt Hon Peter |
| Martin, Michael J. (Springburn) | Short, Clare |
| Martlew, Eric | Simpson, Alan |
| Maxton, John | Skinner, Dennis |
| Meacher, Michael | Smith, Andrew (Oxford E) |
| Meale, Alan | Smith, Rt Hon John (M'kl'ds E) |
| Michael, Alun | Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent) |
| Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley) | Spearing, Nigel |
| Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute) | Spellar, John |
| Milburn, Alan | Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W) |
| Miller, Andrew | Steinberg, Gerry |
| Mitchell, Austin (Gt Grimsby) | Stevenson, George |
| Morgan, Rhodri | Stott, Roger |
| Morley, Elliot | Strang, Dr. Gavin |
| Morris, Rt Hon A. (Wy'nshawe) | Straw, Jack |
| Morris, Estelle (B'ham Yardley) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury) |
| Mowlam, Marjorie | Taylor, Rt Hon John D. (Strgfd) |
| Mudie, George | Taylor, Matthew (Truro) |
| Mullin, Chris | Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E) |
| Murphy, Paul | Turner, Dennis |
| O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire) | Tyler, Paul |
| O'Hara, Edward | Walker, Rt Hon Sir Harold |
| Olner, William | Wallace, James |
| O'Neill, Martin | Walley, Joan |
| Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Warded, Gareth (Gower) |
| Paisley, Rev Ian | Wareing, Robert N |
| Patchett, Terry | Watson, Mike |
| Pendry, Tom | Welsh, Andrew |
| Pickthall, Colin | Wicks, Malcolm |
| Pike, Peter L. | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Sw'n W) |
| Pope, Greg | Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen) |
| Powell, Ray (Ogmore) | Winnick, David |
| Powell, William (Corby) | Wise, Audrey |
| Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E) | Worthington, Tony |
| Prentice, Gordon (Pendle) | Wray, Jimmy |
| Prescott, John | Wright, Dr Tony |
| Primarolo, Dawn | Young, David (Bolton SE) |
| Purchase, Ken | |
| Quin, Ms Joyce | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Radice, Giles | Mr. Eric Illsley and |
| Randall, Stuart | Mr. Andrew Mackinlay. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Mr. Eric Illsley (Barnsley, Central)On a point of order, Madam Speaker. During the previous Division, three Clerks were in the Aye Lobby, two recording the vote and one whose presence in the Lobby was not explained. I have raised the matter with the Clerk at the Table and the Clerk of the House, but I have been given no explanation of why the third Clerk should have been present in the Aye Lobby during a Division. The presence of a third Clerk, or anyone who should not have been in that Lobby, giving advice or whatever, tends to negate the value of that Division.
§ Madam SpeakerOf course the Division is not negated. I will make inquiries to find out precisely what took place.