HC Deb 03 November 1993 vol 231 cc400-5

Lords amendment: No. 2, in page 10, line 47, leave out ("24") and insert ("23")

Mr. Gwilym Jones

I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

This is purely a drafting amendment to clause 18, which incorporates in the Bill certain provisions of the Harbours, Docks and Piers Clauses Act 1847. Subsection (2) lists the provisions that are not to be incorporated, including section 24 of the 1847 Act. However, section 24 will be repealed by the Statute Law (Repeals) Bill. The amendment simply ensures that clause 18(2) of the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill is consistent with the changes that will be affected by the repealing legislation.

Mr. Morgan

May I ask the Minister a question about the return to the legislation of section 24 of the Harbours, Docks, and Piers Clauses Act 1847? What exactly will be the impact of omitting it from the omission, as it were?

My question relates very closely to the substance of our last debate. I understand that, as a result of the change, Customs and Excise would be empowered to examine even pleasure vessels moving in and out of Cardiff bay. As has been pointed out, the distinction that existed back in 1847—the date of the Act that is being incorporated in part, although not as a whole, in the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill—no longer exists. I refer to the distinction between yachts and pleasure craft, and other ships.

Is it being suggested that drug-running yuppies are using yachts to get in and out, and that Customs and Excise want to reserve the power to board those yachts to find out whether they are carrying illicit cargoes? If the Bill had not been amended, that would be covered, and Customs and Excise would not have lost the power conferred by the 1847 Act. Has this concern arisen suddenly, or is there some other explanation for the late change in the Bill?

7 pm

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Tony Newton)

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It may be convenient if I tell the House—indeed, I mentioned it last week in the business statement, referring to the possibility that messages from the House of Lords would need to be considered—that it is proposed that Lords messages relating to the British Railways Bill be considered after the conclusion of this business.

Mr. Ron Davies

Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Has the Leader of the House had an opportunity to convey that information to the shadow Leader of the House? Obviously, it was important for the Opposition to be informed of this development.

We are very disappointed that important proceedings on the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill have been interrupted by this move, which clearly derives from the Government's inability to deliver their majority in either House. Will time be available at the conclusion of our proceedings on the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill for a debate—albeit brief—on the message from the House of Lords?

Mr. Deputy Speaker

I should point out that the time is coming out of that allocated by the guillotine motion to the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill debate.

Mr. Newton

Further to those points of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It will, I think, be visible that I had asked for the shadow Leader of the House to be informed of our intention to take this business; but I wanted to let the House know as soon as possible.

There is no question of interrupting proceedings on the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill. It is proposed that the Lords messages be taken at the conclusion of those proceedings. The guillotine motion that the House passed yesterday provides time for the consideration of Lords messages.

Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South)

Further to the points of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This is important. The Leader of the House has, in effect, used a point of order to make a business statement. There was no indication on the screens that such a statement was to be made. Hon. Members who would have wanted to be present have therefore been denied the opportunity. The change in tonight's business should have been shown on every screen in the House, in the ordinary way. The failure to announce it is utterly disgraceful.

Mrs. Margaret Beckett (Derby, South)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. As the Lord President said, his office attempted to notify us; unfortunately, that happened only about 30 seconds ago. I did not realise that the right hon. Gentleman would be on his feet almost as soon as I had put the phone down.

My hon. Friend the Member for Bradford, South (Mr. Cryer) has made an important point. I do not wish to take up the House's time in a guillotined debate, but it is extremely important for all hon. Members to have every opportunity to learn what is likely to happen. I hope that every attempt will be made to communicate that to them.

Mr. Newton

I assure the right hon. Lady that every attempt will be made to act along the lines that have been suggested.

Mr. Gwilym Jones

Let me reply to the hon. Member for Cardiff, West (Mr. Morgan). This is purely a drafting amendment to ensure that the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill is consistent with the repealing legislation.

Question put, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment:-

The House divided: Ayes 291, Noes 133.

Division No. 391] [7.04 pm
Ainsworth, Peter (East Surrey) Evans, David (Welwyn Hatfield)
Aitken, Jonathan Evans, Jonathan (Brecon)
Alexander, Richard Evans, Nigel (Ribble Valley)
Alison, Rt Hon Michael (Selby) Evans, Roger (Monmouth)
Allason, Rupert (Torbay) Evennett, David
Alton, David Fabricant, Michael
Amess, David Fairbairn, Sir Nicholas
Arbuthnot, James Fenner, Dame Peggy
Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) Field, Barry (Isle of Wight)
Arnold, Sir Thomas (Hazel Grv) Fishburn, Dudley
Ashby, David Forman, Nigel
Ashdown, Rt Hon Paddy Forsyth, Michael (Stirling)
Aspinwall, Jack Forth, Eric
Atkins, Robert Foster, Don (Bath)
Atkinson, Peter (Hexham) Fox, Dr Liam (Woodspring)
Baker, Nicholas (Dorset North) Fox, Sir Marcus (Shipley)
Baldry, Tony Freeman, Rt Hon Roger
Banks, Matthew (Southport) French, Douglas
Banks, Robert (Harrogate) Fry, Peter
Bates, Michael Gale, Roger
Batiste, Spencer Gallie, Phil
Beith, Rt Hon A. J. Gardiner, Sir George
Bellingham, Henry Garel-Jones, Rt Hon Tristan
Bendall, Vivian Garnier, Edward
Beresford, Sir Paul Gill, Christopher
Blackburn, Dr John G. Goodson-Wickes, Dr Charles
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Gorst, John
Booth, Hartley Grant, Sir A. (Cambs SW)
Boswell, Tim Greenway, Harry (Ealing N)
Bottomley, Peter (Eltham) Greenway, John (Ryedale)
Bottomley, Rt Hon Virginia Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth, N)
Bowden, Andrew Grylls, Sir Michael
Bowis, John Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn
Boyson, Rt Hon Sir Rhodes Hague, William
Brandreth, Gyles Hamilton, Rt Hon Archie (Epsom)
Brazier, Julian Hamilton, Neil (Tatton)
Bright, Graham Hanley, Jeremy
Brooke, Rt Hon Peter Hannam, Sir John
Brown, M. (Brigg & Cl'thorpes) Hargreaves, Andrew
Browning, Mrs. Angela Harris, David
Bruce, Ian (S Dorset) Harvey, Nick
Burns, Simon Haselhurst, Alan
Burt, Alistair Hawkins, Nick
Butler, Peter Hawksley, Warren
Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) Hayes, Jerry
Carlile, Alexander (Montgomry) Heald, Oliver
Carlisle, John (Luton North) Heathcoat-Amory, David
Carrington, Matthew Hendry, Charles
Cash, William Hicks, Robert
Channon, Rt Hon Paul Higgins, Rt Hon Sir Terence L.
Clappison, James Hill, James (Southampton Test)
Clarke, Rt Hon Kenneth (Ruclif) Hogg, Rt Hon Douglas (G'tham)
Clifton-Brown, Geoffrey Horam, John
Coe, Sebastian Hordern, Rt Hon Sir Peter
Colvin, Michael Howard, Rt Hon Michael
Congdon, David Howarth, Alan (Strat'rd-on-A)
Coombs, Anthony (Wyre For'st) Hughes Robert G. (Harrow W)
Coombs, Simon (Swindon) Hunt, Rt Hon David (Wirral W)
Cope, Rt Hon Sir John Hunt, Sir John (Ravensbourne)
Cormack, Patrick Hunter, Andrew
Couchman, James Hurd, Rt Hon Douglas
Cran, James Jack, Michael
Currie, Mrs Edwina (S D'by'ire) Jackson, Robert (Wantage)
Curry, David (Skipton & Ripon) Jenkin, Bernard
Davies, Quentin (Stamford) Jessel, Toby
Davis, David (Boothferry) Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey
Deva, Nirj Joseph Jones, Gwilym (Cardiff N)
Devlin, Tim Jones, Nigel (Cheltenham)
Dicks, Terry Jones, Robert B. (W Hertfdshr)
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Dover, Den Key, Robert
Duncan, Alan Kilfedder, Sir James
Duncan-Smith, Iain King, Rt Hon Tom
Dunn, Bob Kirkhope, Timothy
Durant, Sir Anthony Knapman, Roger
Dykes, Hugh Knight, Mrs Angela (Erewash)
Elletson, Harold Knight, Greg (Derby N)
Knight, Dame Jill (Bir'm E'st'n) Rumbold, Rt Hon Dame Angela
Knox, Sir David Ryder, Rt Hon Richard
Kynoch, George (Kincardine) Sackville, Tom
Lait, Mrs Jacqui Sainsbury, Rt Hon Tim
Lang, Rt Hon Ian Scott, Rt Hon Nicholas
Lawrence, Sir Ivan Shaw, David (Dover)
Legg, Barry Shaw, Sir Giles (Pudsey)
Leigh, Edward Shephard, Rt Hon Gillian
Lennox-Boyd, Mark Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Lidington, David Shersby, Michael
Lightbown, David Sims, Roger
Lilley, Rt Hon Peter Skeet, Sir Trevor
Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield)
Lord, Michael Soames, Nicholas
Luff, Peter Spencer, Sir Derek
Lyell, Rt Hon Sir Nicholas Spicer, Sir James (W Dorset)
Lynne, Ms Liz Spicer, Michael (S Worcs)
MacGregor, Rt Hon John Spink, Dr Robert
MacKay, Andrew Spring, Richard
Maclean, David Sproat, Iain
Maclennan, Robert Squire, Robin (Hornchurch)
McNair-Wilson, Sir Patrick Stanley, Rt Hon Sir John
Maddock, Mrs Diana Steen, Anthony
Madel, David Stephen, Michael
Maitland, Lady Olga Stern, Michael
Malone, Gerald Stewart, Allan
Mans, Keith Streeter, Gary
Marland, Paul Sumberg, David
Marlow, Tony Sweeney, Walter
Marshall, John (Hendon S) Sykes, John
Marshall, Sir Michael (Arundel) Tapsell, Sir Peter
Martin, David (Portsmouth S) Taylor, Ian (Esher)
Mates, Michael Taylor, John M. (Solihull)
Mawhinney, Dr Brian Taylor, Matthew (Truro)
Merchant, Piers Taylor, Sir Teddy (Southend, E)
Michie, Mrs Ray (Argyll Bute) Temple-Morris, Peter
Milligan, Stephen Thomason, Roy
Mills, Iain Thompson, Sir Donald (C'er V)
Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) Thompson, Patrick (Norwich N)
Mitchell, Sir David (Hants NW) Thurnham, Peter
Moate, Sir Roger Townend, John (Bridlington)
Montgomery, Sir Fergus Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexl'yh'th)
Needham, Richard Tracey, Richard
Neubert, Sir Michael Tredinnick, David
Newton, Rt Hon Tony Trend, Michael
Nicholls, Patrick Trotter, Neville
Nicholson, David (Taunton) Twinn, Dr Ian
Nicholson, Emma (Devon West) Tyler, Paul
Norris, Steve Vaughan, Sir Gerard
Onslow, Rt Hon Sir Cranley Viggers, Peter
Oppenheim, Phillip Waldegrave, Rt Hon William
Ottaway, Richard Walden, George
Page, Richard Walker, Bill (N Tayside)
Paice, James Wallace, James
Patnick, lrvine Waller, Gary
Pattie, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Ward, John
Pawsey, James Wardle, Charles (Bexhill)
Peacock, Mrs Elizabeth Waterson, Nigel
Pickles, Eric Watts, John
Porter, David (Waveney) Whitney, Ray
Portillo, Rt Hon Michael Whittingdale, John
Powell, William (Corby) Widdecombe, Ann
Rathbone, Tim Wilkinson, John
Redwood, Rt Hon John Willetts, David
Rendel, David Wilshire, David
Renton, Rt Hon Tim Wolfson, Mark
Richards, Rod Wood, Timothy
Riddick, Graham Yeo, Tim
Rifkind, Rt Hon. Malcolm Young, Rt Hon Sir George
Robathan, Andrew
Robertson, Raymond (Ab'd'n S) Tellers for the Ayes:
Robinson, Mark (Somerton) Mr. Sydney Chapman and
Roe, Mrs Marion (Broxbourne) Mr. Derek Conway.
Adams, Mrs Irene Ashton, Joe
Ainsworth, Robert (Cov'try NE) Barnes, Harry
Allen, Graham Bayley, Hugh
Anderson, Donald (Swansea E) Benn, Rt Hon Tony
Anderson, Ms Janet (Ros'dale) Bennett, Andrew F.
Bermingham, Gerald Livingstone, Ken
Betts, Clive Loyden, Eddie
Blunkett, David McAvoy, Thomas
Bradley, Keith McFall, John
Brown, N. (N'c'tle upon Tyne E) McKelvey, William
Burden, Richard Mackinlay, Andrew
Byers, Stephen McMaster, Gordon
Campbell, Mrs Anne (C'bridge) McNamara, Kevin
Campbell, Ronnie (Blyth V) Madden, Max
Campbell-Savours, D. N. Marek, Dr John
Cann, Jamie Marshall, David (Shettleston)
Clwyd, Mrs Ann Marshall, Jim (Leicester, S)
Coffey, Ann Martin, Michael J. (Springbum)
Connarty, Michael Martlew, Eric
Cook, Frank (Stockton N) Maxton, John
Corbett, Robin Michie, Bill (Sheffield Heeley)
Corbyn, Jeremy Milburn, Alan
Corston, Ms Jean Miller, Andrew
Cryer, Bob Morgan, Rhodri
Cummings, John Morley, Elliot
Cunningham, Jim (Covy SE) Murphy, Paul
Dafis, Cynog O'Brien, Michael (N W'kshire)
Darling, Alistair O'Hara, Edward
Davidson, Ian Parry, Robert
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) Patchett, Terry
Davies, Ron (Caerphilly) Pendry, Tom
Dixon, Don Pike, Peter L.
Donohoe, Brian H. Pope, Greg
Dunnachie, Jimmy Powell, Ray (Ogmore)
Eagle, Ms Angela Prentice, Ms Bridget (Lew'm E)
Enright, Derek Primarolo, Dawn
Etherington, Bill Purchase, Ken
Evans, John (St Helens N) Radice, Giles
Flynn, Paul Raynsford, Nick
Foster, Rt Hon Derek Reid, Dr John
Fraser, John Roche, Mrs. Barbara
Garrett, John Rogers, Allan
Gerrard, Neil Rooker, Jeff
Godman, Dr Norman A. Rooney, Terry
Golding, Mrs Llin Rowlands, Ted
Gordon, Mildred Sedgemore, Brian
Gould, Bryan Sheerman, Barry
Graham, Thomas Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert
Griffiths, Win (Bridgend) Simpson, Alan
Hanson, David Skinner, Dennis
Hinchliffe, David Smith, Llew (Blaenau Gwent)
Home Robertson, John Spearing, Nigel
Hood, Jimmy Spellar, John
Hoon, Geoffrey Squire, Rachel (Dunfermline W)
Howarth, George (Knowsley N) Strang, Dr. Gavin
Howells, Dr. Kim (Pontypridd) Taylor, Mrs Ann (Dewsbury)
Hughes, Kevin (Doncaster N) Turner, Dennis
Hughes, Roy (Newport E) Warden, Gareth (Gower)
Hutton, John Wareing, Robert N
Illsley, Eric Williams, Alan W (Carmarthen)
Jackson, Helen (Shef'ld, H) Wise, Audrey
Janner, Greville Worthington, Tony
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Wray, Jimmy
Kennedy, Jane (Lpool Brdgn) Young, David (Bolton SE)
Khabra, Piara S.
Kilfoyle, Peter Tellers for the Noes:
Kinnock, Rt Hon Neil (Islwyn) Mr. Jon Owen Jones and
Leighton, Ron Mr. Peter Hain.
Lewis, Terry

Question accordingly agreed to.

Mr. Ron Davies

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. The House faces an appalling situation tonight. The Government are in a shambles. They have been defeated for the third time in the House of Lords. Now they have had to come here and disrupt a debate on the Cardiff Bay Barrage Bill, which is of immense importance to the people of Cardiff—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. I must put the question on Lords amendment No. 3, and inform the House that it involves privilege.

Lords amendment: No. 3, after clause 21, to insert the following new clause—