Trident (Hansard, 4 February 1992)

§ 2. Mr. Salmond
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the progress of the Trident programme.

§ 3. Mr. Jacques Arnold
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence when he now expects to place the order for the fourth Trident submarine.

§ The Secretary of State for Defence (Mr. Tom King)
The Trident programme continues on time towards its in-service date at an estimated final cost of £10,518 million. This marks a further small reduction against last year's estimate and an overall real reduction of £3 billion against the original 1982 forecast.
We plan to place the order for the fourth Trident submarine with VSEL at Barrow as soon as contract negotiations have been satisfactorily completed.

§ Mr. Salmond
Does the Secretary of State accept that the debate on Trident in Scotland is not on whether we should have three or four boats or on the number of warheads per missile but on whether we should proceed with expenditure which, over its lifetime, could amount to £23,000 million on a useless, dangerous military white elephant? Does the Secretary of State accept that there has not been, is not and will not be a majority in Scotland for the Trident missile system and that, ultimately, its deployment will depend on the consent not of the Westminster Parliament but of the Scottish people, and it will not be forthcoming?

§ Mr. King
I have not met many Scottish people who wish to be left exposed to the nuclear blackmail that could come from the huge nuclear arsenal which will remain for many years on the continent and in Russia. The Scottish people whom I meet who work in the shipyards at Yarrow take pride in building ships for the Royal Navy whose orders would presumably be lost to them if they had the pleasure of being represented by an SNP policy. I do not think that the 23,000 people presently involved in the Trident programme think that their efforts are wasted. They are proud of their contribution to the essential safeguarding of our country.

§ Mr. Arnold
What does the Secretary of State believe to be the Russian assessment of our Trident programme and, indeed, their assessment of British public opinion on the subject?

§ Mr. King
The whole world had the opportunity of hearing on television what President Yeltsin thought. He said that the number of nuclear weapons at the disposal of the United Kingdom was not comparable with theirs and that, therefore, the matter was not worth discussion. The Opposition have complained for years that our determination to maintain an essential minimum 117 safeguard for our country with a nuclear deterrent was somehow an obstacle to the necessary task of reducing the overblown nuclear arsenals of the super-powers, but President Yeltsin dealt with their arguments in one wholly destructive answer.

§ Mr. Home Robertson
Will the Secretary of State confirm that fully two thirds of the costs of Trident have already been spent or contractually committed by the present Government? Will he further confirm that the consequences of the Scottish National party's policies would be to deprive many hundreds of people of their employment at Rosyth and on the Clyde while still leaving Scotland at risk from the consequences of a nuclear attack on Barrow or on the north of England? We would have all the risk but none of the advantages.

§ Mr. King
I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's support which I take to be absolutely unequivocal support for the Trident programme. I wish I thought that his colleagues were beginning to share that idea—perhaps we have an alliance here. Not all the expenditure is committed. The hon. Gentleman and his colleagues can save money if they do not believe in the nuclear deterrent, and it is high time that they told the country what their priorities are.

§ Mr. Franks
The Secretary of State will be aware of the further 600 redundancies announced yesterday in the shipyards in Barrow which will bring to 4,500 the number of jobs lost since "Options for Change" was announced about 18 months ago. Will he therefore take this opportunity to emphasise the employment aspect as well as the strategic importance of the fourth submarine? Will he also note the observations of Barrow Labour party which has described the Opposition's promise to give work equivalent to that involved in a fourth submarine as ignorant and ill-informed?

§ Mr. King
Clearly, I heard with disappointment the announcement made by VSEL yesterday. I note that 10,400 are presently employed. It is a disappointment that there are to be 600 redundancies, but there is a continuing significant level of employment in defence at Barrow which is dependent on it and which has been sustained by the Government's commitment to a strong defence. I weep for Barrow's prospects were there conceivably any change in Government, because the right hon. Member for Manchester, Gorton (Mr. Kaufman) has said that the Opposition would replace a cancelled fourth boat with equivalent work only to be denounced by his own candidate in Barrow who used the words "ignorant and ill-informed".

Mr. O'Neill
Will the Secretary of State explain to the House the confusion that arose yesterday following the Prime Minister's statement on the United Nations meeting? The confusion arose between the subsequent press briefings given by the hon. and learned Member for Grantham (Mr. Hogg), the Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office, and the Prime Minister's statements about what were likely to be the maximum number of warheads on the Trident programme. Although I recognise that for obvious reasons the Secretary of State will not want to be locked or painted into a figure of 512 as the maximum, which is what it would be, will he tell the House whether, in the light of last week's discussions with President Yeltsin and the changes that have taken place 118 since Christmas, the Government are now considering the minimum deterrent to be somewhat lower than they had previously considered it necessary to be?

§ Mr. King
The hon. Gentleman knows the situation perfectly well. We have never gone beyond the statement that we will have a maximum of 128 warheads per submarine. That is our position and that is where we remain. We have also made it absolutely clear that we will ensure that our deterrent is effective and absolutely credible, and that it puts real fear into any potential aggressor about the damage that he could suffer if he were to attack this country. That is our position and we have made it absolutely clear that we will do that within the terms of operating a minimum deterrent, which is obviously the sensible way to go.
The hon. Gentleman seems to be totally ignorant of and unable to adjust to President Yeltsin's announcement in which he made it absolutely clear that our determination to maintain a minimum deterrent is no obstruction to the determination that he and President Bush have to reduce the nuclear arsenals of the super-powers.