Namibia Bill [Lords] (Hansard, 12 February 1991)

§ Mrs. Ann Clwyd (Cynon Valley)
Before I give my support to the Bill on Third Reading, let me ask the Minister one or two questions following our Second Reading debate last week.
In her reply to that debate, the Minister for Overseas Development talked about Walvis bay. Do the Government envisage the "early" reintegration of Walvis bay into Namibia taking place before the end of this year? Will Namibia's 12 offshore islands be included, and what sort of encouragement—the Minister's word—will the Government bring to bear on South Africa to relinquish its invalid territorial claim to Walvis bay?
What did the Minister for Overseas Development mean when she said that the Government would help the Namibian Government to tackle the problem of inherited debt, estimated at 800 million rand, which South Africa illegally imposed on the country before independence? Surely in international law the debt belongs to the South African reserve bank which, in turn, owes Namibia a large sum of accumulated foreign currency. Will the Minister support in principle the renunciation of the entire illegal debt?
We appreciate that development projects in education, agriculture and fisheries take time to plan, but does the Minister agree that the Government have been a bit slow off the mark—especially in agriculture and fisheries, given that other countries are already helping to drill bore holes, dig wells, train coastguards, provide seed and research fish stocks?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean)
Order. I hesitate to interrupt the hon. Lady, but we had a fairly wide-ranging debate on Second Reading, and we are now on Third Reading. Hon. Members must direct their remarks to what is in the Bill. I am finding it slightly difficult to understand how the hon. Lady's present remarks can be related to what is in the Bill.

§ Mrs. Clwyd
I appreciate that point, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I am bringing my remarks to a close.
Namibia is now a Commonwealth country and the Bill reinforces its status as such. The present situation is an example of what could happen elsewhere in southern Africa. Will the Minister therefore explain why, over the next three years, the Government are to provide only about a quarter of the bilateral aid that is to be provided by Sweden, and far less than many other countries are providing?
Given that the most organised part of the Government's aid to Namibia so far is in military and police training, it is not good enough to say that all police forces should operate on the basis of full respect for human rights and the law. Hon. Members asked last week for the assurance that training will have a specific human rights component. Will the Minister now assure us that that will be the case?
I have several other questions, Mr. Deputy Speaker, but I will not strain your considerable patience tonight, as 808 we had a full debate last week. Nevertheless, I should be grateful if the Minister would respond more fully to my questions when he has an opportunity.

§ Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield)
I apologise to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to the occupants of the Treasury Bench, to the House and to the Government arid people of Namibia for not having attended the whole of the Second Reading debate last week. I was present for most of the winding-up speeches, but unfortunately until then was engaged on other commitments elsewhere in the House.
I warmly welcome the Bill. Some hon. Members will know that for almost all my 20 years in the House, I have taken a great interest in Namibia, which is a wonderful country. I do not hesitate to say that, if I was not a citizen of the United Kingdom, there is no other country in which I should like to live more than in Namibia—or South-West Africa, as it was known.
I have had the privilege of visiting that country on many occasions. I must say that the new Government of Namibia would not have been the Government of my choosing. I would much have preferred it had the Democratic Turnhaller Alliance won the election, but SWAPO and its allies won it fairly and squarely and I believe that they stand a chance of forging a multi-party democracy in that country which will stand the rest of Africa in good stead for the future. All of us watch Namibia with great interest.
The hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) referred to the debt that the new Government inevitably inherited from the Administration that preceded them. I hope that the United Kingdom Government, the EC and other countries will seek to ensure that the fragile body of democracy which is Namibia will not have a millstone round its neck in the form of the large debt that it inherited. I repeat that I have visited Namibia many times; I have been to north, south, east and west. The infrastructure that has been built up is amazing. It is probably one of the best in the African continent. To that extent, the new Administration, under President Nujoma, have a good legacy on which to build for the future. But we do not want them to be handicapped and restricted by the heavy debt incurred by the previous Administration and so prevented from doing what is necessary to ensure their country's prosperity.
I go a little wide, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because the Bill has gone through the House extremely quickly. I do not believe that the admission of a new country to the British Commonwealth should go through on the nod, without those who have some knowledge of that country contributing to the debate and wishing it well. I hope that Namibia's immense potential can be used by its people.
Many hon. Members will know that the country comprises at least 11 different tribal groups, speaking 16 or more different languages. The Namibians have immense problems with education and the provision of educational equipment.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. I must ask the hon. Gentleman, who is a member of the Chairman's Panel, to help me. I have already called the hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) to order. The occupant of the Chair 809 allowed a long debate on Second Reading. We are now on Third Reading and we must discuss what is in the Bill. I am sure that the hon. Gentleman will now do just that.

§ Mr. Winterton
Indeed I will. You have brought me to order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, and I shall certainly accede to your instruction.
I hope that Britain, as one of the leading countries of what was the British Commonwealth and is now simply the Commonwealth, will seek to play its part in ensuring the success of this fledgling country. Namibia has only 1.4 million people, but, as a member of the Commonwealth, it can take advantage of the immense wealth of good will and experience that is comprised in and can be obtained from the Commonwealth. I wish Namibia well. I wish its Government and its Opposition parties well. I hope that the country can set the example for the rest of Africa. I know that President de Klerk is doing his best in the Republic, but if there is success in African democracy—for that is what is important—there can be peace in that continent and Namibia can set the pace of reform and progress in the whole of southern Africa.

§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs (Mr. Mark Lennox-Boyd)
This is a technical Bill to amend United Kingdom law to take account of Namibia's independence and membership of the Commonwealth. There have been debates both in this House and another place, not on the provisions of the Bill, which are largely uncontentious, but on the policy towards the newly independent Government of Namibia. Members of both Houses have had ample opportunity to express their opinions and I am happy to say that the debates have shown universal good will towards Namibia, a good will which was reiterated tonight by my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton).
The hon. Member for Cynon Valley (Mrs. Clwyd) asked several questions, to which I shall reply briefly. If any elaboration is needed, I know that my right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development will communicate with the hon. Lady.
As we have already said, we support the early integration of Walvis bay. In this context, "early" means as soon as practicable. It is for the Governments of South Africa and Namibia to determine the pace of negotiations. It is equally for them to determine the scope of any agreement and whether, for example, it would include the offshore islands presently administered with Walvis bay. As for encouragement, we have already emphasised in talks with the South Africans the importance of the talks to Namibia's prosperity. We believe that they will recognise the importance to the region and to themselves of an economically healthy Namibia and the key role of access to Walvis bay facilities.
The hon. Member for Cynon Valley also mentioned the inherited debt, which was referred to by my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield. My right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development made it clear that Namibia is already providing in its 1990 budget for servicing and repayment of that debt. Namibia has not sought renunciation of the entire legal debt.
810 The hon. Lady asked several questions about aid. If I may, I shall draw them to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Minister for Overseas Development. I know that she will read the Hansard report of the debate. I shall ask her to provide the hon. Lady with answers in writing. Let us all hope that the immense potential of Namibia will be realised, to use the words of my hon. Friend the Member for Macclesfield. On that note, I am happy to commend the Bill to the House.