Business of the House

HC Deb 22 March 1990 vol 169 cc1237-50 3.33 pm

Dr. John Cunningham (Copeland)

First, I express the deep and widespread sorrow of my right hon. and hon. Friends and myself at the sad and untimely death of our colleague and friend, Allan Roberts.

May I ask the Leader of the House to state the business for next week?

The Lord President of the Council and Leader of the House of Commons (Sir Geoffrey Howe)

I echo the hon. Gentleman's remarks about his late colleague; we wish to be associated with them.

The business for next week will be as follows:

MONDAY 26 MARCH—Conclusion of the Budget statement.

Motions relating to Personal Community Charge (Relief) Regulations. Details will be given in the Official Report.

TUESDAY 27 MARCH—Motion for the Easter adjournment.

Proceedings on the Consolidated Fund (No. 2) Bill.

WEDNESDAY 28 MARCH—Progress on remaining stages of the Social Security Bill.

THURSDAY 29 MARCH—Until seven o'clock motions on Community Charge Benefit Regulations. Details will be given in the Official Report.

Remaining stages of the Criminal Justice (International Co-operation) Bill [Lords].

The Chairman of Ways and Means has named opposed private business for consideration at seven o'clock.

FRIDAY 30 MARCH—Private Members' Bills.

MONDAY 2 APRIL—Second Reading of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill [Lords].

[Relevant Documents

Monday 26 March:

Personal Community Charge (Relief) (England)

Regulations (S.I. 1990, No. 2)

Personal Community Charge (Relief) (England) (Amendment) Regulations (S.I. 1990, No. 402) EDM 664 Personal Community Charge (Relief) (Wales) Regulations (S.I. 1990, No. 288) EDM 774

Thursday 29 March:

Community Charges (Deductions from Income Support) (No. 2) Regulations (S.I. 1990, No. 545) EDM 698 Community Charge Benefit (General) Amendment Regulations

Community Charge Benefits (Permitted Total) Order (S.I. 1990, No. 533) EDM 773

Community Charge Benefits (General) Amendment No. 2 Regulations.]

Dr. Cunningham

What further thoughts has the right hon. and learned Gentleman had about how the House will be able to deal with the proposals in the important though controversial Bill on embryology? Will it, for example, be possible for us to take as a separate issue in a debate on the Floor of the House the proposals for a 14-day limit on experiments on embryos?

Will any matter related to the issue of abortion law also be taken with a vote on the Floor of the House, rather than in Committee upstairs? It is important that all hon. Members, whatever their view of these important and controversial issues, have the opportunity to hear the arguments and to express their views in the Lobby as a Committee of the whole House.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman try to find some Opposition supply time before the Easter recess? Like his hon. Friends, Labour Members are anxious to have an opportunity to debate the developing shambles associated with the introduction of the poll tax. It is important that, before those impositions are imposed on our constituents and before the widespread distress that will result, the House has a further opportunity to consider all aspects of the poll tax and its implications.

Continuing with that issue, is not it clear that every time members of the Cabinet try to dodge issues and duck statements in the House, the Government get into even more trouble? Would not it have been much more preferable, and indeed proper, for the Secretary of State for Scotland to make his important announcement in the Chamber of the House rather than in front of the press, which prevented Scottish Members from asking questions of importance to their constituents? Will the Leader of the House arrange as soon as possible for the Secretary of State for Scotland to come to the House and make an oral statement about his intentions so that we may have an opportunity to ask those questions?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

The answer to the first point raised by the hon. Gentleman is that the Government are seeking—and I shall certainly be seeking—to manage the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill as best as possible to give the House the opportunity that is wanted on both sides for views to be recorded and made effectively, regardless of any partisan alignments, because it is a matter of that kind.

The hon. Gentleman will remember that, when the Bill was introduced in another place, it had alternative versions of clause 11 before it. When it reaches this House it will have only one version. But I intend so to organise matters that this House will have a choice between comparable alternatives at the appropriate time. I am consulting widely within the House to work out the best way of handling all those matters, and I shall acquaint the House with my proposals as soon as I sensibly can.

I repudiate of course the ridiculous suggestion made by the hon. Gentleman that the Government's handling of the community charge is regarded as a shambles. It is precisely because that is wholly without foundation that we have no fewer than two occasions next week for consideration of further subordinate legislation in connection with it.

The Secretary of State for Scotland has made it plain, and I do so now, as the Prime Minister has already done, that when he is able to bring fully worked-out proposals forward, he will do so by reporting to the House at the earliest opportunity.

Sir Peter Tapsell (East Lindsey)

Can my right hon. and learned Friend tell us when the House will have an opportunity to debate the report of the Department of Trade and Industry inspectors on the directors of the House of Fraser?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

My hon. Friend will be aware that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry has sent an additional memorandum about wider aspects of merger policy and company law to the Select Committee on Trade and Industry. He will, in addition, be giving oral evidence to the Committee next week. I do not think that a debate on the point raised by my hon. Friend would be desirable, at least in advance of the report of that Committee.

Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington)

Can we have the statement for which I have now asked on nine separate occasions on wage rates in the Refreshment Department of the House? Is it possible that the reason for the posts that are being advertised not being filled at the moment is that the wages that we are paying are insufficient? Why does the Leader of the House persist in ignoring the requests for a statement on these matters?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I cannot add anything to what I said a couple of weeks ago. The matter was also the subject of a question to the hon. Member for Berwick-upon-Tweed (Mr. Beith), who answers to the House for the House of Commons Commission, which is, as the hon. Gentleman knows from the answer he received, looking at the matter. It is possible that one reason for difficulty in filling vacancies is the very high level of employment under this Government.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton (Macclesfield)

My right hon. and learned Friend has announced that next week there will be further consideration on the Floor of the House of the Social Security Bill. Is he able to tell the House today—it would be very helpful if he could do so—whether the Government intend to introduce during the remaining stages any measures on the raising of income support for those who have to find accommodation in private nursing homes and residential homes? Can he also say whether the Government have any intention of altering the taper in respect of those who wish to apply for a rebate, for housing benefit or for other benefits to which they are entitled, particularly in the light of the Government's announcement relating to the raising of the capital disregard?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

My hon. Friend will no doubt make his own opportunity for raising these matters in the course of the debate next week on the Social Security Bill. He will have to await the declaration of the Government's intentions at a later stage.

Mr. Harry Barnes (Derbyshire, North-East)

Can we have a discussion on the state of the franchise, whereby the poll tax is clearing people off the electoral register and, on the other hand, votes for expatriates are replacing them by people who are not involved in the procedures of this country or dependent upon its services? If the Government are doing this, why are they doing it so badly, because they are not doing anything to their advantage as far as their own electoral advance is concerned?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I have seldom heard a more confused question. There is no foundation for the suggestion that the community charge is discouraging people from appearing on the electoral role. Any other charges, such as adding to the electoral roll for expatriate citizens, are taking place in accordance with legislation passed by the House.

Mr. Michael Jopling (Westmorland and Lonsdale)

In view of the answer that the Prime Minister gave a few moments ago, will the Leader of the House try to arrange a debate in the near future so that we can try to find ways in which England can get a fairer share of the public purse compared with Scotland?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I cannot think of a more appropriate opportunity than the Budget debate for raising such far-ranging questions.

Mr. Alfred Morris (Manchester, Wythenshawe)

While we await the Government's response to their defeat last week over inadequate provision for frail and often confused old people in residential care, can we at least have an assurance in an urgent ministerial statement that there will be no evictions of elderly people who can no longer afford their fees?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

The right hon. Gentleman will appreciate that there will be opportunities in the further debates on that Bill and on the Social Security Bill for raising such questions. I will, of course, bring his point to the attention of my right hon. Friend.

Sir William Clark (Croydon, South)

Following the question of my hon. Friend the Minister for East Lindsey (Sir P. Tapsell), may I ask my right hon. and learned Friend to reconsider his position on the report on the House of Fraser? While one accepts the fact that a report will go to a Select Committee, this will mean further delay; it will also mean that in the meantime the House of Fraser, through Harrods, is continuing to run a bank. In view of the report, should not that bank licence be revoked immediately, and may we have a debate on the matter?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

My hon. Friend's point is more appropriate for my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer than for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry. As for the responsibility of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry, there is still some substance in the case that the matter should await his giving evidence on all these matters to the Select Committee.

Mr. David Alton (Liverpool, Mossley Hill)

When the Leader of the House studies the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill, will he consider the implications of the case in the Liverpool court yesterday? A drunken driver mowed down a pregnant women on a pedestrian crossing and her eight-month-old baby was killed. Is the Leader of the House aware that the judge in the case said that this unborn child had no rights in law and that the drunken driver was charged merely with reckless driving, fined £1 and sent to prison for a mere three months? Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that the safeguards for the unborn child are wholly inadequate and that this appalling state of affairs needs to be rectified?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I share the hon. Gentleman's distress about the facts of that case. The law appears to be as stated in the commentary on that case, but, clearly, it is a matter which I can bring to the attention of my right hon. and noble Friend the Lord Chancellor, and I shall do that.

Mr. Donald Thompson (Calder Valley)

Will my right hon. and learned Friend listen carefully to the Opposition's pleas for a debate on the community charge so that we can expose the deliberate and cynical manipulation of the introduction of the community charge by Labour councils and councillors to the disadvantage of old and poor people for short-term electoral gain?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

My hon. Friend makes his point well. He will have an opportunity of doing so yet again in two debates next week.

Mr. Michael Foot (Blaenau Gwent)

I apologise to the right hon. and learned Gentleman in advance if I misheard him. When will the Secretary of State for Scotland make a statement to the House? Did the Leader of the House tell us when it would happen and was it with his agreement that, instead, the Secretary of State for Scotland made a statement to the press this afternoon? Did the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree to that procedure?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

As my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has already made plain, my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland will make a statement to the House—[HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] When the details of the proposals have been sufficiently worked out, in a couple of weeks.

Mr. Richard Tracey (Surbiton)

In the light of the less than adequate support for the police and neighbourhood watch exhibited by Labour Members in Home Office Question Time today, will my right hon. and learned Friend arrange for an early debate on police matters and neighbourhood watch so that the full-hearted support of Conservative Members for neighbourhood watch can be exhibited to the country?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I sympathise with my hon. Friend's point. I have been seeking an opportunity for some time for a debate on the Government's proposals for criminal justice. I will bear my hon. Friend's point in mind as well.

Mr. John McFall (Dumbarton)

The Leader of the House may be aware of the contents of an internal memorandum from the commodore of the Clyde submarine base, which has come to my attention. It says that all 7,000 workers at the base can sign a petition organised by the local Conservative association regarding planning permission for the peace camp out with that base. That introduces an element of partiality which has never existed before with the forces. Further information has come to me that a local Conservative councillor has had a meeting with the senior naval person at the base. Will the Leader of the House assure me that impartiality will be maintained in future and that he will have discussions with the Secretary of State for Defence to ensure that such a disgraceful situation will never occur again?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

My understanding of the present position is that the guidance issued by the naval authorities, following inquiries made by individual personnel, stressed that under Queen's regulations, service personnel have no right to engage in party politics. The question of planning permission was seen as a local issue, so the workers could, as private citizens and community chargepayers, sign a petition opposing planning permission for the Faslane peace camp if they wished.

Mr. Charles Wardle (Bexhill and Battle)

When my right hon. and learned Friend considers the future business of the House, will he consider lending Government support to the proposal that each of the private Members' motions drawn in the ballot be time-limited so that each one gets at least one and a half hours' debate? Is he aware that I have the third motion on tomorrow's Order Paper which would provide the House with an ideal opportunity to consider, inter alia, the DTI inspectors' report into the House of Fraser affair?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I can well understand my hon. Friend's urgent interest in that particular radical proposal for reform. However, I am afraid that I cannot promise to do anything to remedy the position before tomorrow.

Mr. Jack Ashley (Stoke-on-Trent, South)

Is the Leader of the House aware that 4,500 severely disabled people rely very much on the independent living fund to cover the costs of disability and to keep some of them out of institutions? However, that fund is drying up this year and there are reports that the Treasury wants to end it. Is not that a matter of great concern and worthy of debate next week?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I am not familiar with the reports to which the right hon. Gentleman has referred. However, I will bring his point to the attention of my right hon. Friends the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Secretary of State for Social Security.

Mr. John Carlisle (Luton, North)

My right hon. and learned Friend will be well aware that we have not had a debate on sport in Government time for many years. Before we rise for the Easter recess, may we have an opportunity in particular to debate Manchester's bid for Olympic games and the disgraceful comments made by the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell) who tried to rubbish the bid? Would not such a debate give Labour Members an opportunity to say whether they support the right hon. Member for Small Heath and, like him, are betraying the interests of British sport in that matter?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

My hon. Friend has taken that opportunity to make his important point. He will have another opportunity to develop the point in the debate on the Easter Adjournment on Tuesday and perhaps in the Consolidated Fund debate.

Mr. Ron Brown (Edinburgh, Leith)

As the Government are apparently committed to market forces, is it not a little strange that the Scottish Development Agency—a Government quango in Scotland—should reach a secret deal with Barratts, the building company, to develop a large area in my constituency—West Pilton circus—with a subsidy estimated at £300,000 or perhaps more? Obviously that deal remains secret because Ministers refuse to divulge information. Is that part of the kick-back system and part of a bribe to the Government's friends elsewhere? Frankly, that is morally wrong. Many residents are suffering because Barratts is abusing planning permission in that area in my constituency. Can we have a debate early next week to discuss the role of Barratts, the Government and the SDA?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

If the hon. Gentleman can make an intervention as long as that about a deal that is secret, I tremble to think how long he could speak on a deal that was not secret. He can pursue that matter more fully in Scottish questions.

Mr. Bob Dunn (Dartford)

Has my right hon. and learned Friend had an opportunity to see early-day motion 360 which relates to the economic policies of the Labour party?

[That this House, whilst accepting the reluctance of the Leader of the Opposition to make his policies known, wishes to know what the standard rate of income tax would be under Labour.]

Will my right hon. and learned Friend give an undertaking that an opportunity will be found between now and Easter to debate the Labour party's policies—inasmuch as we know them—which we believe the Opposition have a duty to make clear and be frank about, instead of trying to mislead the electorate by saying nothing and doing nothing—or, as they say in Lancashire, saying nowt and doing nowt?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I sympathise with my hon. Friend's wish to expose the high-tax policies that are characteristic of the Labour party and I hope that he will take every opportunity to do that, including any opportunity that may occur to him during the Budget debate.

Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West)

Now that the Leader of the House has been permanently grounded in London, has he noticed, like the rest of us, just how bad the situation is in our capital city? Is he also aware that the Henley Centre for Forecasting has stated that the great majority of Londoners are concerned about rising crime, transport chaos and homelessness? May we please have a general debate about London? The Leader of the House has been asked about that before, and he said that he would consider the matter.

Sir Geoffrey Howe

The hon. Gentleman will have to find his own opportunities to raise that matter in debates. I think that I am right in saying that there is likely to be a debate tomorrow on transport in London. That will be at least one opportunity.

Mr. Ivor Stanbrook (Orpington)

May we have a statement next week on whether the Prime Minister will see Nelson Mandela on his forthcoming visit to Britain to give her a chance to encourage him in his present statesmanlike approach to constitutional reform in South Africa?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I cannot promise a statement on that. My hon. Friend will have an opportunity to ask my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister about it if he is lucky enough to catch your eye, Mr. Speaker. There was some opportunity to do what my hon. Friend suggests in the brief meeting yesterday between Mr. Mandela and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs.

Rev. Martin Smyth (Belfast, South)

The right hon. and learned Gentleman will be aware that the Government have not yet extended the inestimable boon of the community charge to Northern Ireland. Could we have a Minister from the Northern Ireland Office present in the House next week to make it clear whether ratepayers on small incomes will have the benefit of the raised limit on savings to entitle them to a rate rebate?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I shall bring the hon. Gentleman's point to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.

Mr. David Sumberg (Bury, South)

May I support the plea made to my right hon. and learned Friend for a debate next week on sport to give us all a chance, particularly hon. Members for the north-west, to express or condemnation of the disgraceful statement of the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell)? Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware that many people in the north-west, from both sides of politics, have put time and effort into bringing the Olympic games to Manchester and do not want it scuppered by Labour politicians?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I have a great deal of sympathy with my hon. Friend's point, particularly as I represented a seat in the north-west of England for some time. I shall take every opportunity to underline the points that he made.

Mr. Doug Hoyle (Warrington, North)

Will the Leader of the House not hide behind the fact that the Select Committee will question the Secretary of State in the inquiry into the House of Fraser? May I express the view of the whole Committee by asking the Secretary of State for Trade and Industry to take part in a debate in the House as early as possible? The answers must be given by the Secretary of State to the whole House, not just to a Committee.

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I shall bring that point to the attention of my right hon. Friend. No doubt the Committee will have an opportunity to do so when he gives evidence to the next meeting.

Mr. Nigel Spearing (Newham, South)

Does the Leader of the House recall that, at the Madrid summit last year, a commitment was made to European monetary union? Is he aware that the EC Commission has now reported to the Council of Ministers on that subject, that that report is distinct from the Delors report last year and that it will be considered by the Council of Ministers shortly when it meets in Ireland? Can he assure the House that the reports will be published and will be considered by the Select Committee on European Legislation so that the Committee can report to the House and make a recommendation on whether it should be debated?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

As the hon. Gentleman will know better than most of us, during the consideration of such a massive topic, many papers are produced and no doubt will be produced by different agencies of the Community for consideration by various council meetings and others. Some of them qualify for consideration by a Committee of the House and others do not. I shall find out whether the document to which the hon. Gentleman referred falls into that category.

Mr. Bob Cryer (Bradford, South)

May we have a debate on water charges? Is the Leader of the House aware that Yorkshire Water plc, as it now is, proposes to increase the connection charge for domestic premises from £37 to over £500? That follows a 33 per cent. increase in standing charges. The textile industry in Bradford and elsewhere in Yorkshire is worried about the increase in water charges because, as the Leader of the House is no doubt keenly aware, that industry depends heavily on a supply of water. The increase in water charges is a potential threat to jobs at a time of high interest rates and the poor economic conditions created by the Government. May we have a debate to go into the matter in some detail?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

The hon. Gentleman knows that there are many aspects to such a question. For example, the House is as concerned about environmental matters as about employment. A great deal of the rise in charges payable to water authorities is a result of the rise in standards of environmental care. We always have to try to strike the right balance between them.

Mr. Andrew Faulds (Warley, East)

The right hon. and learned Gentleman seemed unusually unknowing a couple of weeks ago when I asked him a question about the problems of marine archaeology. Has he now had time to do his homework? Does he realise that the Joint Nautical Archaeology Policy Committee issued recommendations some time ago, which still await legislative action? When are the Government likely to proceed with those matters, which are important to heritage concerns?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

As a result of the hon. Gentleman's assiduity, I am now aware of those matters, but I am not yet in a position to promise them an early place in the legislative programme.

Mr. Robert Litherland (Manchester, Central)

May I draw the attention of the Leader of the House to early-day motion 660, which refers to the lack of funding and education about the virulent disease hepatitis B?

[That this House expresses deep concern at the lack of funding and inadequate information relating to the hepatitis viruses; urges Her Majesty's Government to make provision for the necessary education campaign targeted at high risk groups, giving an assurance that vaccination will be made readily available to particularly vulnerable groups and including hepatitis B in the screening that is currently in progress on the incidence of AIDS and HIV; and congratulates the Russell Harty (Jimmy's) Hepatitis and Liver Research Fund in drawing public awareness to this highly infectious disease.]

I am astounded that hon. Members have such little knowledge about that disease, which kills more people in one day than AIDS kills in one year. Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman confer with his right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Health so that hepatitis B can be included in the AIDS programme? May we have a debate or a statement soon, please?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Health recognises the seriousness of hepatitis viruses. I understand that the incidence of hepatitis B has been declining in recent years, but even so I shall bring the hon. Gentleman's point to the attention of my right hon. and learned Friend, not least because I understand that a new edition of the relevant handbook on these matters is under preparation by the Health Education Authority.

Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North)

Will the Leader of the House confirm that next Tuesday the Secretary of State for Transport will make a statement about the assessment studies in London? Will he allow the House to have a full debate on those studies, when, I hope, the Secretary of State will announce that he will abandon all the road-building schemes and instead put money into public transport? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman ensure that that debate is linked to the concerns that have been raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Newham, North-West (Mr. Banks) about the growing worries about the deteriorating quality of life in London?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I know that my right hon. Friend is hoping to make a further statement about those matters before long. The hon. Gentleman will no doubt have the opportunity of raising his points when the statement is made.

Mr. Greville Janner (Leicester, West)

May we please have a debate about the tragedy in which three children were killed when they were playing inside a fridge-freezer, the lid of which closed over them? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman also bear in mind the need for regulations that would require local authorities to collect such fridge-freezers and to dispose of them safely? I ask that because of the extraordinary refusal of the Hinckley and Bosworth district council in Leicestershire to carry out such a collection, which has scandalised all the people of that county, irrespective of their political allegiance.

Sir Geoffrey Howe

I cannot comment on what the hon. and learned Gentleman alleges to be the position of the council that is in proximity to his constituency. However, I can endorse his general anxiety about such accidents and shall bring his point to the attention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Environment.

Mr. Tom Pendry (Stalybridge and Hyde)

May I echo the calls for a debate in the House on sport, during which my right hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Small Heath (Mr. Howell) will be able to say that he endorses Manchester's bid for the Olympics, which he has always endorsed, and during which he and other Opposition Members will be able to highlight the problems that sportsmen and women in this country experience as a result of the Government's policies towards sport?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

A number of reasons seem to be developing about why the House wants a debate on sport. I am glad to have that expression of unanimity in support of Manchester.

Mr. George Foulkes (Carrick, Cumnock and Doon Valley)

rose——

Mr. Speaker

I call Mr. Madden.

Mr. Foulkes

I was born in England.

Mr. Max Madden (Bradford, West)

Is the Leader of the House aware of the allegations that three Chairmen of Select Committees hold financial interests that bear directly on the work of their Select Committees? Is he also aware that the Select Committee on Members' Interests will find great difficulty in bringing recommendations to the House before the summer recess because of its backlog of work? Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman have discussions with the Chairman of that Select Committee to see whether there is any way in which the Committee can bring recommendations to the House to dispel public disquiet about that matter?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

As the hon. Gentleman knows, there are procedures to deal with any individual allegation, and I encourage him to follow those if he wishes to pursue the matter. On the wider questions, the Chairman of the Select Committee on Members' Interests and his colleagues are considering the several matters before them in the way most likely to bring a conclusion before the House. I was in touch with the Chairman recently and I know that he is seeking to do his best.

Ms. Marjorie Mowlam (Redcar)

Will the Leader of the House please stop dodging and weaving on the question of a debate on the House of Fraser? During business questions last week he said that he would give the matter serious consideration. The Chair of the Select Committee on Trade and Industry, behind which the right hon. And learned Gentleman is hiding, said last Thursday that he did not think that consideration of the matter by his Committee prevented debate in the House.

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman assure us that once the matter has been referred to that Committee next week, he will confirm during business questions next Thursday, and certainly before we break for the Easter Recess, that he has finally made a decision?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

The hon. Lady is energetic in pressing that cause upon me, and she is not alone in doing so. The matter, together with all the evidence from my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, will be fully considered by the Select Committee. It would be sensible to wait for that before reaching a conclusion.

Several Hon. Members

rose——

Mr. George Foulkes

My mother was born in England.

Mr. Speaker

Order. The Scots have been very patient [Interruption.] There is an adage about the first coming last and the last coming first, and that happens from week to week, but this time I call Mr. Foulkes.

Mr. Foulkes

Good evening, Mr. Speaker.

Does the Leader of the House agree with so many Opposition Members that it is an insult to the House for the Secretary of State for Scotland to make a detailed statement to the press at 2.30 pm instead of coming to the House to make a statement at 3.30 pm? Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that, in his earlier replies, he misunderstood—perhaps deliberately—what we were saying? We want a statement, but we do not want only to ask questions about a detailed statement after the scheme has been worked out; we want to ask questions about what the Secretary of State said today.

Why is the £4 million coming from the already overstretched Scottish Office budget? Which parts of the budget will have to be cut because of that? Will the Secretary of State come to the Dispatch Box at the first possible opportunity to do what he is paid to do, which is to answer to this House?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

As I have already said, my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State will fully report his proposals to the House at the earliest opportunity after the details have been worked out.

Mr. Dick Douglas (Dunfermline, West)

Perhaps the Leader of the House could help us because of his previous experience as Chancellor of the Exchequer. Are we to understand that the statements about capital offsets were made in Cabinet and accepted by the whole of the Cabinet, and that it was not until the Secretary of State for Scotland threatened to resign and the hon. Member for Southend, East (Mr. Taylor) expressed his displeasure that a rapid turnabout occurred?

Will the Leader of the House assure us that the person who comes to the Dispatch Box before Scottish questions next Wednesday will be the right hon. and learned Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind) and not the hon. Member for Southend, East or the hon. Member for Stirling (Mr. Forsyth)?

Above all, I invite all those who wish to pursue the campaign against the poll tax in Scotland to attend a rally in Glasgow on 31 March, when we intend to show our total opposition, not manufactured opposition, to the poll tax.

Sir Geoffrey Howe

Despite my passion to help the hon. Gentleman and despite his newly independent status, I am not prepared to divulge what took place in Cabinet. I assure him that all his allegations stand on imagined foundations.

Mr. Malcolm Bruce (Gordon)

Does the Leader of the House accept that the Secretary of State for Scotland has effectively been cut adrift by the rest of the Cabinet over this issue? In those circumstances, his future is at stake, and his inability to come to the House and tell us what a packed press conference heard is not only unacceptable but further undermines his already weakened position. Is not it a fact that the £4 million that he has put aside has come from his Scottish Office budget, which shows that the rest of the Cabinet have washed their hands of him?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

There is no basis for reaching such a conclusion. As one would expect, my right hon. arid learned Friend has discussed the matter with his colleagues, including my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The Prime Minister has already answered questions about it in the House, as have I. The position will be explained to the House in due course by my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State.

Mr. Thomas McAvoy (Glasgow, Rutherglen)

I am tempted to say, "Good morning." As you have repeatedly said, Mr. Speaker, this is a United Kingdom Parliament. Bearing in mind the fact that, particularly since 1987, the Government's decisions have been vindictive and unfair to Scotland, will the Leader of the House undertake to have a debate in the House next week to consider the record of this Conservative and Unionist Government on damaging the Union?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

Speaking as a Welshman for another national component of the United Kingdom, I find the sensitivity of the Scots on this matter difficult to understand. The Government seek to govern the United Kingdom, and do so effectively; Parliament seeks to represent the United Kingdom, and does so effectively. We shall continue to do so.

Mr. Andrew Welsh (Angus, East)

When I previously asked the Leader of the House what should he done when important Scottish business was put through the House so that it minimised parliamentary scrutiny, he expressed some concern, yet once again he has allowed that to happen. It is insulting enough for Scotland to be treated as an afterthought, but worse still when parts of the Scottish Office budget are to be transferred and services endangered without the Secretary of State for Scotland being here in any shape, form or presence to answer for his actions. If his statement was made today, surely his response should also be made today.

What can be done about a Prime Minister who deliberately misleads the House —

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman must withdraw that remark. No Minister, or even hon. Member, misleads the House.

Mr. Welsh

I was only asking whether anything could be done, because clearly—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman may have done so, but I am asking him to rephrase his question.

Mr. Welsh

I shall certainly do so. What can be done about a Prime Minister who, perhaps accidentally, misleads the House? When she says that the poll tax will be popular, not only does she mislead the House, but she totally deludes herself.

Sir Geoffrey Howe

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister has expressed her opinion on the matter clearly, and it is one which we share. I hope that the House will also come to share it.

Dr. Norman A. Godman (Greenock and Port Glasgow)

I offer the right hon. and learned Gentleman no apologies for staying with the issue of the implementation of poll tax concessions to people in Scotland. If the matter, as it relates to England and Wales, was important enough to be outlined in detail by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on Tuesday, why have we heard only a statement of sorts today by the Prime Minister and the Leader of the House concerning the Scottish poll tax payers? The issue is above party politics; an increasing proportion of our surgery workload each week is concerned with dealing with distressed, elderly constituents who simply cannot find the means to make their poll tax payments, be they weekly or whatever. A statement should be made from the Dispatch Box. Has the Leader of the House received any information in the past few minutes about whether such a statement is to be made by the Secretary of State for Scotland on Monday or Tuesday of next week?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

It is because of the need for clarity about such matters, as the hon. Gentleman said, that I have said that my right hon. and learned Friend will make a statement to the House when the details have been fully worked out and can be understood.

Mr. William McKelvey (Kilmarnock and Loudoun)

Does not the Leader of the House, with hindsight, confess that, had he given serious consideration to the setting up of a Select Committee on Scottish Affairs, the great disorder, the shambles, that is now apparent in the Scottish Office might not have occurred?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

There is no such shambles in the Scottish Office; nor does the hon. Gentleman's argument add to those that have already been made about the possibility of setting up a Select Committee.

Mr. John Home Robertson (East Lothian)

Why is the Secretary of State for Scotland being kept under wraps today? Does this latest victim of the pampering of the Scots by the Prime Minister have one black eye or two? As this must be just about the only example of a Secretary of State, on a Thursday, handing out from his overstretched budget £4 million in settlement of a claim that on the Wednesday he dismissed as bogus, may we now have a proper explanation?

Sir Geoffrey Howe

My right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland, and the Government as a whole, have responded sensibly, within the budgetary framework, to the case that has been canvassed in this House. The House will be told about it in due course by my right hon. and learned Friend.

Mr. Alex Salmond (Banff and Buchan)

I am aware, Mr. Speaker, that one day the last will be first.

Is the Leader of the House really saying that a Lobby briefing was given today on a scheme that had not been fully worked out, a scheme that the Chief Secretary to the Treasury had said was impossible? Is not the real reason for the lack of a statement by the Secretary of State for Scotland the fact that such a statement would quickly expose the hollow sham of recycling money in the Scottish Office budget, by comparison with the provision of the new money that was announced by the Chancellor on Tuesday? Does the Leader of the House not understand the wish of Scottish Members to question the Secretary of State for Scotland? The only reason that we can think of for his remaining in office is the identity of his possible successor.

Sir Geoffrey Howe

The hon. Gentleman is again allowing his fancy to run riot. The fact is that the proposals that my right hon. and learned Friend has disclosed will be presented to the House in due time. [HON. MEMBERS: "When?"] When the details have been fully worked out.