§ 8. Mr. David EvansTo ask the Secretary of State for Education and Science what resources are being made available by his Department to help implement recommendations directed to central Government contained in the Elton report on school discipline.
§ The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Education and Science (Mr. Alan Howarth)In the current financial year, central Government grant is supporting expenditure of some £6.1 million on projects arising from the recommendations of Lord Elton and his colleagues. We owe a debt of gratitude to Lord Elton and his colleagues for a thoughtful and thorough report.
§ Mr. EvansI thank my hon. Friend for his reply. Does he agree that the Elton report does not go far enough—[Interruption.]—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. Evans—in that corporal punishment should be reintroduced into schools? Does he further agree that Lord Elton should write another report that deals with the disgraceful behaviour of the Opposition, in particular of the hon. Member for Coventry, South-East (Mr. Nellist), who perhaps should receive corporal—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. This place is often likened to a school, but I do not think that the hon. Member's last remark is relevant.
§ Mr. Nellistrose—
§ Mr. HowarthAs always, my hon. Friend makes his points in highly effective style. He speaks with great force on an issue about which strong views and conflicting feelings are widely held. It was the Government's intention that the Education (No. 2) Act 1986 should give parents a right of choice on whether their children should be liable to corporal punishment in schools. But the House decided, on a free vote on these Benches, not to accept that policy. The Government accepted the will of the House and, in consequence, it is not legal to administer corporal punishment to pupils in maintained schools or to publicly funded pupils in independent schools.
§ Mr. SpeakerMr. Campbell-Savours.
§ Mr. Nellistrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I call Mr. Campbell-Savours first.
§ Mr. Campbell-SavoursOn the question of disciplining people in schools, may we have an assurance that Mr. Martin Turner of Croydon and all his colleagues who worked with him on the interesting document that was produced will be protected from any pressure that might be exerted by any education authority anywhere in the United Kingdom?
§ Mr. HowarthIt is no part of the values of the Conservative party to impose any sort of ideological tyranny. Mr. Turner is an employee of Croydon local education authority and I am sure that Mr. Turner's rights, and his freedom of thought and expression in that authority, will be guaranteed, as they should be.
§ Mr. Harry GreenwayIs my hon. Friend aware that the tragedy of the abolition of corporal punishment is that children are brought before the courts for small offences for which a stroke of the cane would have been more effective and immediate and would be of lasting value throughout their lives? Will he persuade his right hon. Friends in the Government to think again about that simple, important measure and to reintroduce modern, reasonable corporal punishment in schools for gross indiscipline?
§ Mr. HowarthMy hon. Friend speaks with all the authority of his background as a headmaster and the House listens to him with respect when he speaks on these issues. If we debated the matter further, I have no doubt that he would make an important contribution. It is perhaps worth stressing that the Elton report emphasised in its recommendations to schools the importance of establishing a clear set of rules backed up by a system of rewards and punishments which are clearly understood and accepted by teachers, parents and pupils. Where that applies, as it does in many schools, and where there is the right partnership between parents and teachers, to help children to understand and respect the difference between right and wrong, the orderly atmosphere which is a precondition of effective teaching and learning is created.
§ Mr. SpeakerI call Mr. Fatchett.
§ Mr. Fatchettrose—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. Nellistrose—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I ask the House to settle down. This is a serious matter.
§ Mr. Fatchettrose—
§ Mr. NellistOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe only point of order that the hon. Gentleman can have is his distress at not being called. What is the point of order?
§ Mr. NellistIs it not a fact that in your capacity as Speaker you have said several times from the Chair that if an hon. Member is named by another hon. Member it is normal practice to call the hon. Member who was named? Have you not said that in the past? If so, why—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I did not hear the hon. Member being named. [HON. MEMBERS: "He was."] All right. I will call Mr. Nellist. [Interruption.] Order. It takes up the time of the hon. Gentleman's colleagues. Come along.
§ Dame Elaine Kellett-BowmanOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I have called Mr. Nellist.
§ Dame Elaine Kellett-Bowmanrose—
§ Dame Elaine Kellett-BowmanOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Lady knows better than that.
§ Mr. NellistIf the Minister can tell his hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Mr. Evans) that extra resources can be diverted to maintaining good order in schools, why will he not put resources into areas such as those that I mentioned last week so as to stop councils breaking health and safety regulations by teaching kids in toilets? Why will he not put extra resources into Tower Hamlets to stop the council breaking the terms of the Education Act 1944 by sending hundreds of children home every day because there are no teachers to teach them? Why—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I gave the hon. Member the chance to raise a question about corporal punishment in schools and nothing else.
§ Mr. NellistWhy does the education team not take the beam out of its own eye before talking about motes in anyone else's?
§ Mr. HowarthThe hon. Gentleman tells the House that he is keen on good discipline and the observation of regulations and warns against hypocrisy, but what puzzles me is that he also encourages the citizens of Coventry not to pay their community charge. If they do not pay their community charge, how can Coventry education authority have the resources that it needs to equip and staff its schools properly?
When I was asked to take responsibility for the Coventry task force, I wrote to all Coventry Members suggesting that we meet to consider how we could work in the interests of Coventry. I was disappointed that I had no response whatever from the hon. Gentleman.
§ Mr. BudgenMy hon. Friend says that the matter of corporal punishment was decided by a free vote in this House, but is that the whole story? Did not a decision by the European Court of Human Rights, which sought to impinge upon the sovereignty of this Parliament, direct us that corporal punishment could not be used in schools? And did not the Government, without any debate in the House, reaffirm the European convention on human rights?
§ Mr. HowarthMy hon. Friend raises much wider constitutional issues, but the House has debated and freely took its decision.
§ Mr. SpeakerNow, Mr. Fatchett.
§ Mr. FatchettThank you, Mr. Speaker. I am sure that you now understand and appreciate some of the problems of school discipline.
The Minister, in answer to his hon. Friend the Member for Welwyn Hatfield (Mr. Evans), referred to £6 million to ease the problems of discipline, but that is less than £230 per school, so there is little money available on that basis. Does the Minister recognise that we live in a society in which the Government have presided over record crime levels, shown ambivalence towards the problems of law and order in their activities, and encouraged individualism, and that that is bound to be reflected in discipline problems in schools? Instead of simply blaming the 169 teachers, is it not time that the Government gave them the necessary resources and recognised their responsibility for the lack of discipline in our schools?
§ Mr. HowarthThe Government make no apology for having encouraged individualism and enterprise. The hon. Gentleman's inability to recognise that those qualities assort perfectly well with self-discipline shows the narrowness of his conceptions. I am sad that the hon. Gentleman suggests that there is widespread disorderliness in our schools, as that is a gross disparagement of teachers and it is not the case. Beyond that, the House would be interested to know how much more money the Labour party would propose to spend.