Welsh Counties Committee (Hansard, 6 November 1989)

§ 5. Mr. Morgan
To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the Welsh Counties Committee; and what matters were discussed.

§ 7. Mr. Murphy
To ask the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met the representatives of district councils in Wales; and what matters were discussed.

§ Mr. Peter Walker
I met representatives of the Welsh Counties Committee and the Council of Welsh Districts at a meeting of the Welsh Consultative Council on Local Government Finance on 2 November to discuss local government finance matters.

§ Mr. Morgan
Perhaps one of the burning topics that will be put before the Secretary of State when he next meets the Welsh Counties Committee will be the appalling bungle that the Welsh Office has made during the past 12 months. It has prevented Welsh counties, including South and West Glamorgan and Clwyd, from submitting to the European Commission applications for grants from the regional development fund to help with infrastructure schemes. Now that the counties are in a position to submit schemes for consideration, the EEC has changed the rules, and large infrastructure projects are no longer available. I should like to hear from the Secretary of State what his own estimate is, but it looks to me as though his Department and his bungling have cost the British taxpayer more than £66 million. Can he comment on that?

§ Mr. Walker
Yes, I can comment on it. The hon. Gentleman's assertions are mythical and unfounded, and the Welsh counties local authorities have expressed considerable gratitude for all the help that the Welsh Office has given them:

§ Mr. Murphy
Did not Welsh council leaders tell the Secretary of State at the meeting last Thursday that his figure of £175 for the Welsh poll tax is a massive underestimate? Will he admit that the implementation of the poll tax in Wales is now a shambles, and that councils face even higher administrative and running costs as a direct result of his Government's policy? Does not all this 664 anyway smack of back-pedalling and panic because there is not one friend of the poll tax in the Principality of Wales?

§ Mr. Walker
I am only sorry that the hon. Gentleman was not present at the meeting, which was cordial and constructive. There were no complaints along the lines that he describes, and I suggest that he consults local authorities more fully to find out what is really going on.

§ Mr. Gwilym Jones
Did my right hon. Friend discuss the fear of many in Wales that some local councils are using the inevitable confusion arising from the change in revenue raising next April and the fact that many of them do not have to face elections to raise the community charge far higher than is necessary? That will be a decision of the Welsh local councils. What steps does my right hon. Friend propose to take to protect the people of Wales from such councils?

§ Mr. Walker
I hope that such actions will not be taken. The background is that Welsh authorities in the main have acted responsibly and that is one reason why we have succeeded in negotiating a community charge in Wales of about £100 less than that in England or Scotland.

§ Mr. Flynn
Did the counties committee raise with the Secretary of State the disparity in spending in Scotland and Wales—especially spending on the Health Service? Is he aware that two parliamentary answers today show that the average spending on the Health Service per head of the population is £504 in Scotland, whereas the average in Wales is a mere £445. Why is that?

§ Mr. Walker
As the hon. Gentleman tabled the questions himself, he will know that exactly the same differential existed in 1978 and 1979.

§ Mr. Barry Jones
On a matter as important as poll tax transitional relief and revenue support grant in Wales, why has the right hon. Gentleman decided not to make an oral statement? We note that the Secretary of State for the Environment proposes to make such a statement and to submit to oral questioning. Do you note, Mr. Speaker, that on the Order Paper for written answer today are questions tabled by the hon. Member for Cardiff, North (Mr. Jones) relating to the poll tax and revenue support grants? Why is the Secretary of State running away from the House? Why has he decided not to make a statement and answer questions? Why has he elected to behave in so slippery a style? He knows that Wales hates the poll tax and that Welsh local authorities are starved of cash. Why is there no statement to the House?

§ Mr. Walker
I assure the hon. Gentleman that I intend to make an oral statement as usual—certainly way before Christmas—when I shall give full details of my proposals for local government finance. Following my constructive meeting with local authorities the local authority associations shared my view that it would not be helpful at this stage to publish examples illustrating the likely effects of my proposals on individual authorities. As Wales has done far better in terms of the poll tax than the rest of the United Kingdom, I shall rejoice in making that statement.