HC Deb 25 January 1989 vol 145 cc1016-8
6. Mr. Yeo

To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will report on progress in steps he is taking to encourage effective international action to protect the ozone layer.

20. Mr. Janner

To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment whether he will make a further statement on the Government's response to international efforts to ban the use of chlorofluorocarbons in aerosol containers.

Mr. Ridley

As the House is aware, we have called for worldwide emissions of chlorofluorocarbons to be reduced by at least 85 per cent. by the turn of the century, and for the Montreal protocol to be strengthened accordingly. To underline the importance of further worldwide reductions and to show how they can be achieved, my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and I are calling a major international conference in early March to bring together Governments of all countries as well as world industry. We shall also host the second meeting of the Montreal protocol parties in 1990, at which we hope the reductions for which we are calling will be agreed.

Mr. Yeo

Can my right hon. Friend confirm that the United Kingdom aerosol industry intends to ban the non-essential use of CFCs in aerosols before the end of this year? Will he tell the House what impact that will have on demand in this country?

Mr. Ridley

The United Kingdom aerosol industry has agreed to ban or to phase out the use of CFCs in British aerosols by the end of this year. As those aerosols currently constitute 60 per cent. of the CFCs used in the United Kingdom, by that means alone we shall have achieved our Montreal protocol objectives by the end of this year. However, we hope to do very much better than that in the longer term.

Mr. Janner

What do the Government propose to do to dispose of the 10,000 tonnes of CFC-containing refrigerant under their control and at their disposal in places such as hospital blood banks, mortuaries and munition stores? In the meantime, will the Minister at least give an instruction to his own Department that the aerosols used there must be ozone-friendly?

Mr. Ridley

On the first part of the hon. and learned Gentleman's question, it is absolutely vital that those who have CFCs trapped into materials and machines should release the minimum amount of those materials. One of the biggest problems is CFCs in fire-fighting equipment, which certainly should not be used for practice. However, until a substitute is found it is difficult to deny the use of that equipment in fire fighting. Certain technical problems are involved. As for the Government's consumption of aerosols, we take care over their use, but I think that our use of aerosols is minimal and I assure the hon. and learned Gentleman that they will be phased out by the end of this year.

Mr. Mans

Does my right hon. Friend agree that in reducing the use of CFCs that are harmful to the ozone layer it is important to make certain that we have replacements for them, because otherwise all that we shall be doing effectively is transferring the production of those harmful CFCs to other countries that do not impose the same restrictions as we do?

Mr. Ridley

That is absolutely correct. I am satisfied that substitutes are now available or that they will soon be available for the vast majority of the curent usage of CFC 11 and 12. The great need is to persuade the rest of the world that those substitutes can be just as effective and that they can be procured. That is the main purpose of the conference.

Mr. Malcolm Bruce

Will the Government raise their sights and follow Sweden's example of undertaking to phase out the use of all CFCs by 1994? Does the Secretary of State agree that the priority in this country is to replace CFCs in refrigerators and to find mechanisms for the safe disposal of those CFCs? Do the Government intend to find time to allow the passage of the Bill on the control of CFCs that I am to introduce today?

Mr. Ridley

We will do very much better than the Swedes. I have no doubt about that. I must not commit myself about the hon. Gentleman's Bill because I believe that the right approach is to persuade the major nations with large populations that they should go along at the same pace as us. We are only 1 per cent. of the world's population. It would not help much if we phased CFCs out and nobody else did. This is an international problem.

Mr. Tredinnick

Will my right hon. Friend acknowledge that it was British scientists who discovered the gap in the ozone layer? Besides discouraging the use of CFCs in aerosols, what other measures is my right hon. Friend taking to persuade high street stores and supermarkets to stock environmentally safe products?

Mr. Ridley

It is true that, as my hon. Friend said, the British Antarctic scientific expedition was the first to identify the hole in the ozone layer. I have already said that we will see the end of the use of CFCs in aerosols by the end of the year; that is by far the biggest contribution we could make. Any other action would be insignificant compared to a declaration of that importance.

Ms. Walley

Has not the Secretary of State just shown us in his replies, particularly to the question by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Leicester, West (Mr. Janner), that, despite what the Prime Minister says, he is completely ignorant of the real issues? Will he take time to read the report prepared by the Heating and Ventilating Contractors' Association? Will he not agree with the association that if the Governemnt wish genuinely to encourage effective international action to protect the ozone layer, they must be prepared to match their words with deeds? Will the Minister say why he will not ban the use of CFCs in aerosol sprays as soon as practically possible? Does he agree that the Government should be setting an example by taking responsibility for the safe disposal—(Interruption]—of CFC refrigerant when the cooling systems in Government establishments are serviced and replaced?

Mr. Ridley

What I heard of that—[Interruption]—I did not agree with.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I repeat that we are making very slow progress today.

Mr. Ridley

I do not believe that the right way forward is to ban the use of CFCs in one product or another. The right way is to restrict the total production of CFCs by very severe amounts. We have already gone to 85 per cent. We will leave the market to discover how best to deliver that reduction rather than banning the use of CFCs. When the use of CFCs was banned in America, production increased because the CFCs went into other uses. The other point is that many of the CFCs in a refrigerator are not in the motor but in the plastic foam insulation in the case of the refrigerator and it is almost impossible to extract them. I do not believe that banning would be the right policy to pursue.

Mr Andy Stewart

Will my right hon. Friend give a practical demonstration to the world by designating Sherwood forest as the new enhanced national forest in this country?

Mr. Ridley

I am not sure that I have had an application to do such a thing. I do not know whether that would contribute to a reduction in CFCs.