§ Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. John M. Taylor.]
12.13 am§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)The reason for this debate is partly to try to redress much of the imbalance that has occurred in the Tory press in Derbyshire and nationally about rates and rate support grants—
§ Mr. Greg Knight (Derby, North)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
§ Mr. SkinnerI thought that this might happen.
§ Mr. KnightThe hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) obviously has clairvoyant powers.
I refer you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to today's Order Paper and in particular to page 1891, of the remaining Orders of the Day and Notice of Motions. No. 36, tabled in my name and the name of my hon. Friends the Members for Erewash (Mr. Rost) and for Derbyshire, West (Mr. McLoughlin), refers to the services of Derbyshire county council and states that, since 1988, it
has wasted public money on political propaganda, including television advertising and publishing a tabloid newspaper.I shall not read it all, but it highlights the fact that ratepayers of Derbyshire have had to suffer a 168 per cent. increase since 1982.
§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Sir Paul Dean)Order. What is the point of order for me?
§ Mr. KnightIf you turn to page 1858 of the Order Paper, Mr. Deputy Speaker, you will notice that the terms of the Adjournment debate standing in the name of the hon. Member for Bolsover refer to Derbyshire county council services. I refer you to Erskine May, page 372 and the section headed:
General restrictions on motions for the adjournment of the House.It says in paragraph (a):Members are precluded, under the rule of anticipation…from discussing on an adjournment motion a notice of motion or an order of the day which already stands upon the notice paper or order book.I have already on the order book for today a notice of motion dealing with the disgraceful waste of ratepayers' money by Derbyshire county council—[Interruption.]—and I submit to you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the hon. Member for Bolsover is precluded from raising this matter on the Adjournment under the rule of anticipation.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. Under Standing Order No. 26 it has to be determined whether a discussion is out of order on the ground of anticipation. Regard must be had by the occupant of the Chair
to the probability of the matter anticipated being brought before the House within a reasonable time.I know of no plans for the motion standing in the name of the hon. Member for Derby, North (Mr. Knight) being brought forward for debate, and indeed that was confirmed by the Leader of the House at business questions today. I am not, therefore, prepared to apply the rule of anticipation in this case.
§ Mr. KnightFurther to my point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I would not wish to challenge your ruling and I accept that there is no chance of my motion being called 612 today. But I have re-tabled my motion for tomorrow morning and I wondered whether—indeed, it could be the case—it would be reached in tomorrow's business.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. That is hypothetical. We shall have to see how we get on tomorrow. Mr. Skinner.
§ Mr. SkinnerI do not think that my hon. Friends and I—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (Derbyshire, West)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I will listen to the point of order from the hon. Member for Derbyshire, West (Mr. McLoughlin). I must remind him and the House that we are now taking time out of the Adjournment debate.
§ Mr. McLoughlinMy point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, relates to the Official Report of 8 March 1988, column 296. I refer to an Adjournment debate which I had about Derbyshire county council. I draw to the attention of the House—and I have previously drawn it to the attention of the Clerks—the fact that the county council responded to my Adjournment debate in its usual hysterical way by accusing me, in having an Adjournment debate, of hiding behind parliamentary privilege. It is—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. What is the point of order for the Chair?
§ Mr. McLoughlinI raise an important point with you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, because I have heard tonight from various sources that the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) and his hon. Friends—some of whom I permitted to speak in my debate—intend to speak for the entire time of the Adjournment debate and not allow time for a Minister to reply—[HON. MEMBERS: "Shame."]
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. We had better get on with the Adjournment debate. Mr. Skinner.
§ Mr. SkinnerI assure you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that there was no plan to take up the whole time of the debate—
§ Mr. Ken Hargreaves (Hyndburn)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I remind the House that the last half hour of every day is given up as very precious time for an hon. Member to raise a point and for a Minister to reply to it. I remind the House also that the Member whose Adjournment subject is tabled for Thursday night is chosen by Mr. Speaker. I hope that the House will respect that, and that right hon. and hon. Members will not interrupt the Adjournment debate with further points of order.
§ Mr. Ken HargreavesFurther to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I agree with your comments, but is it right for the House to rehearse tomorrow's tactics?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I call Mr. Skinner.
§ Mr. Richard Holt (Langbaurgh)Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I listened carefully to your comments about the selection of Thursday night Adjournment debates. To paraphrase your remarks, you said that Mr. Speaker chooses which debate is to be selected on the basis of the right hon. or hon. Member in whose name it is. I refer you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to "Erskine May", which states that the choice has nothing to do with the right hon. or hon. Member concerned, but is made on the basis of the subject matter. In the light of that, will you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, reflect on whether it is the hon. Member who has the Floor of the House or the subject matter? Is it conceivable that my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, West (Mr. McLoughlin) has the ear of Mr. Speaker, rather than the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner), who, apart from the fact that he makes a lot of noise, carries no special weight in the House?
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I hope that we may now proceed with the Adjournment debate.
§ Mr. SkinnerIt is clear, Mr. Deputy Speaker—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. The Adjournment debate that concludes each day is a very special half-hour for the right hon. or hon. Member concerned, who may be from either side of the House. I hope that all right hon. and hon. Members will respect the Adjournment, knowing that they may on some future occasion have that opportunity themselves.
§ Mr. SkinnerMr. Deputy Speaker—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I shall take no further points of order.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I made it clear that I shall take no further points of order. Mr. Skinner.
§ Mr. SkinnerOne thing that is certain, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is that—
§ Mr. Ken HargreavesI beg to move, That strangers do withdraw.
§ Notice being taken that strangers were present, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No. 143 (Withdrawal of strangers from House), put forthwith the Question, That strangers do withdraw:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 1, Noes 46.
614| Division No. 101] | [12.23 am |
| AYES | |
| Widdecombe, Ann | Mr. Nicholas Bennett and |
| Mr. Alan Amos. | |
| Tellers for the Ayes: |
| NOES | |
| Arnold, Jacques (Gravesham) | Davies, Q. (Stamf'd & Spald'g) |
| Barnes, Harry (Derbyshire NE) | Durant, Tony |
| Benn, Rt Hon Tony | Fallon, Michael |
| Bottomley, Peter | Franks, Cecil |
| Bottomley, Mrs Virginia | Gregory, Conal |
| Bowis, John | Ground, Patrick |
| Burns, Simon | Gummer, Rt Hon John Selwyn |
| Campbell, Menzies (Fife NE) | Haynes, Frank |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hayward, Robert |
| Chapman, Sydney | Heathcoat-Amory, David |
| Howarth, Alan (Strat'd-on-A) | Sackville, Hon Tom |
| Howarth, G. (Cannock & B'wd) | Skinner, Dennis |
| Hunt, David (Wirral W) | Taylor, John M (Solihull) |
| Jack, Michael | Thompson, D. (Calder Valley) |
| Key, Robert | Thorne, Neil |
| King, Roger (B'ham N'thlield) | Thurnham, Peter |
| Lightbown, David | Twinn, Dr Ian |
| McFall, John | Waddington, Rt Hon David |
| Maclean, David | Wells, Bowen |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Wood, Timothy |
| Michael, Alun | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Mitchell, Andrew (Gedling) | |
| Newton, Rt Hon Tony | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Norris, Steve | Mr. Robert G. Hughes and |
| Pike, Peter L. | Mr. Edward Leigh. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerMr. Dennis Skinner.
§ Mr. HoltOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. During the six years that I have been a Member of the House there have been frequent points of order from hon. Members on both sides of the House when they have sought to place matters before the House. I spent a number of hours this afternoon in the Library reading "Erskine May", but nowhere could I find anything about the occupant of the Chair refusing to take further points of order. If you say that points of order will no longer be taken during the debate, that is a new ruling.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. What I am saying is that it is most unusual for points of order to be taken during an Adjournment debate, and I hope that the House will respect that. Mr. Skinner.
§ Mr. SkinnerThank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
One thing is certain. There must be a good story to tell about the Labour-controlled Derbyshire county council because of the tremendous efforts that Conservative Members have made to stop the story being told.
We know only too well—
§ Mr. SkinnerWe know that in the course of the past 10 years the rate support grant nationally has been reduced from about 61 per cent. to 46 per cent. But in Derbyshire the picture is much more dramatic. The rate support grant has fallen from 61.9 per cent. to 37.4 per cent. That means that, in contrast with the position when Labour left office in 1979, the ratepayers of Derbyshire in all 10 constituencies have had to find £62.6 for every £100 that has been spent.
It is important that we get it on the record that rates increased generally, and in Derbyshire, because of the massive cut in the rate support grant. [HON. MEMBERS: "Tell us about Reg Race."] One reason why the rate support grant has been cut is in order to finance—[HON. MEMBERS: "What about the waste?"]—those people—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I am finding it difficult to hear whether the hon. Gentleman is in order. Mr. Skinner.
§ Mr. SkinnerI was trying to explain that one of the main reasons why rates paid by the ratepayers in the Tory-held constituencies in Derbyshire have increased rapidly is the Goverment's massive cut in rate support grant.
§ Mr. David Shaw (Dover)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. On my calculation, half the time allowed for the Adjournment debate has gone. Surely the Minister should be invited to reply.
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerThat is a matter for the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner).
§ Mr. John Prescott (Kingston upon Hull, East)Silly twit.
§ Mr. SkinnerOne of the reasons why—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. David ShawOn a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I have been called a silly twit by the hon. Member for Kingston upon Hull, East (Mr. Prescott). In all the time that I have been a Member of the House I have known the hon. Gentleman to speak up for the National Union of Seamen—
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. There are all sorts of remarks passed in this House. I have not heard anything that is out of order.
§ Mr. SkinnerI realise the problem that you have, Mr. Deputy Speaker—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I have appealed to the House. It is unusual for Adjournment debates to be interrupted by points of order. Many hon. Members will hope to have Adjournment debates and to have an opportunity to put their case. I hope that the hon. Member for Bolsover will have the opportunity to put his case. Mr. Skinner.
§ Mr. SkinnerI think that one of the problems you have to face, Mr. Deputy Speaker, is that most of the Tory Members have come out of the bar. They have been drinking—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. One remark from one side of the House tends to provoke another. Let us get on with the Adjournment debate.
§ Mr. SkinnerI was just a little concerned about the fact that you, Mr. Deputy Speaker—[HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] You are having some difficulty, Mr. Deputy Speaker—[Interruption.]
§ Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. There is very little time left. I hope that the House will listen to the hon. Gentleman. I want to hear whether he is in order.
§ Mr. SkinnerI was saying, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you are having great difficulty dealing with people this late at night. I was trying to make the point that Tory Members are trying to prevent the Derbyshire county council's Labour-controlled case from being put in the House of Commons. [HON. MEMBERS: "Rubbish."] I think it is a very good case.
Hon. Members will be pleased to know that since 1981 the Labour-controlled Derbyshire county council has managed to hold the price of meals on wheels for many thousands of old age pensioners at 35p per head. It has never increased the price in those eight years. It managed to hold the price of school meals down to 45p for the junior schoolchildren and to 55p for the seniors. It is the lowest price in any shire county in Great Britain. It is a story of success against the massive cuts that this Government have carried out against the Derbyshire county council.
§ Mr. Robert G. Hughes (Harrow, West)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
§ The motion having been made after Ten o'clock on Thursday evening, and the debate having continued for half an hour, MR. DEPUTY SPEAKER adjourned the House without Question put, pursuant to the Standing Order.
§ Adjourned at seventeen minutes to One o'clock.