§ The Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Commoms (Mr. John Wakeham)I beg to move,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty will give directions that, to mark the Bicentenary in 1988 of the first European settlement of Australia and the opening of the new Parliament House in Canberra, a gift of a Vice-Regal Chair be made, on behalf of both Houses of Parliament, to the Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia.
§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)Who will take the chair?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member must not shout across the Chamber. If he is called, he can make his comments, but he should not do so from a sedentary position.
§ Mr. WakehamTo mark the bicentennial of the first European settlement in Australia, I am happy to move this motion to seek the House's authorisation for a joint gift from this House and another place of a vice-regal chair to the Australian Parliament. The chair will stand in the Senate Chamber of the new Parliament in Canberra, which will be opened this year as one of the major national projects commemorating the bicentenary.
The chair will be a fitting symbol of the common ties between Australia and this country. These links have now lasted 200 years, and I am sure the House will join me in sending the heartiest congratulations to the Parliament and people of Australia on this occasion. We hope that our close relationship will last for many years to come.
§ Mr. Frank Dobson (Holborn and St. Pancras)I join the Lord Privy Seal and Leader of the House of Commons in supporting this proposal to mark what is described in the motion as the 200th anniversary of
the first European settlement of Australia.It is an event that scarcely resounds to the credit of the House, involving as it did the House 200 years ago sanctioning the carrying away of British citizens in the most degrading circumstances and dumping them in Australia. It led to the destruction of the way of life arid many of the lives of the original inhabitants.Having observed these occasions previously, I may say that there is always a touch of the patronising about our relationships with Commonwealth Parliaments; in particular, hon. Members frequently misquote a reference to this place being the mother of parliaments. What was actually said was "England — mother of Parliaments", and I am glad to say that we all salute Australia as the mother of the Australian Parliament. In many ways, Australia's democratic development ran ahead of our own in terms of the people who were allowed to vote, and we always welcomed the support that the Australian labour movement gave to the development of democracy in this country.
In any case, what we are doing today is only a reciprocal gesture to the Commonwealth of Australia, because you, Mr. Speaker, are today sitting in a Chair which was the gift of the Commonwealth of Australia when this Chamber was rebuilt at the end of the second world war. So I am sure that all my hon. Friends join me in wishing Australia well.
675 For people of my generation there is always a sort of ambivalence towards Australia. My first thought of Australia was of men dressed in peculiar green caps, led by a man called Bradman, who let loose two men called Lindwall and Miller on the England cricket team. Since then most of us have come to recognise that Australia has made a substantial contribution not only to sport but to art and literature — and, more latterly, to the task of making people the world over laugh at themselves and others.
We wish the people of Australia well. We hope that all the people of Australia will benefit from the renewal of the Australian Commonwealth, including the aboriginal people who have not done well. On a personal note, may I add that my best wishes to all the people of Australia will be made that much more sincere by the knowledge that Mr. Rupert Murdoch is now an American citizen.
§ Mr. Eric S. Heffer (Liverpool, Walton)While endorsing part of what my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) has said, I do not think we should allow this occasion to pass, or this gift go to Australia, without concerning ourselves with the rights of the aboriginal people. Recently, a Minister quite rightly made public representations about the position of the Palestinian people, pointing out their plight in Israel—or Palestine. We have a responsibility on this occasion to concern ourselves with the rights of the aboriginal people.
After all, it was the British who entered Botany bay and established the penal servitude colonies, and it is the British who have a responsibility for this issue. Before the House agrees to a bicentennial gift of a vice-regal chair for the Australian Commonwealth, we should agree that the humble Address to Her Majesty should include a reference to the position of the Australian aborigine people, and that that message should be conveyed to them from this House.
The House must be aware of the tensions that have been created among the aboriginal people by the bicentennial celebrations. Some of them believe they should be granted the right of self-determination. That is a demand that cannot and should not be ignored. Professor Reynolds, a professor of history at the university of Townsville, Queensland, has written several books on the position of the aborigines. In his third book, "The Law of the Land", he describes how, when South Australia was settled in the 1830s, the Colonial Office instructed that the aborigines should be compensated for the loss of land that had been taken from them and occupied. That has never happened. The present Government of Australia —[Interruption.] What I am saying is important to a group of people in the world who are fighting for their rights, and we have a responsibility because we are about to send a gift. If hon. Members show lack of interest, that will be conveyed to the people of Australia.
Although the Government of Australia announced in December that they would provide the first legal acknowledgement of aborigine prior land ownership and disfranchisement, it will be only a preamble to the Bill and not the treaty for which the aborigines have asked. Professor Reynolds quotes a Western Australian pioneer of the 1880s who warned his fellow colonialists:
Think not that the Aboriginal inhabitants of Australia"—and as a Christian he made this point— 676offspring of the same parent with yourselves and partakers of all the kindred feelings of a common humanity — can resign the mountains and the seas, the rivers and the lakes, the plains and the wilds of their uncradled infancy, and the habitation of their fathers for generations immemorial to a foreign foe, without the bitterness of grief.The House should be aware of the feelings of the aboriginal people. That feeling was expressed most graphically when the Pope visited Alice Springs in December 1986. After meeting the aboriginal peoples the Pope said that it was "legal fiction" by the original settlers to say that the land occupied was nobody's country. He quoted an Australian clergyman who pleaded at that time for the rights of the aboriginal inhabitants,to keep the traditional lands on which their whole society depended.The Pope said,The Church still supports you today.This House, which has as much responsibility as anybody for what happened in Australia, should also say to the aboriginal people, "Yes, we support you today in your rights and in the rights for which you are asking about your land." Our people colonised Australia. As my hon. Friend the Member for Holborn and St. Pancras said, it was our convicts who were sent there. We created the penal colonies.It should be remembered that the aboriginal people have been living in Australia for at least 40,000 years. Archaeological evidence now suggests that it is more like 100,000 years. Before we went to Australia there were 600 Australian nations, all with languages of their own, and with approximately 300,000 to 400,000 people. After the loss of the British colonies in north America, we turned in 1788 to Australia.
I urge the House to write in a message of support for these people. In the past the Colonial Office did that. Perhaps it was only for a short period, but it did so. It is anticipated that on 26 January, Australia day, 30,000 aboriginal people will converge on Sydney. It is expected that it will be the biggest aboriginal demonstration in Australia's history. I ask the House to send a friendly word to those people because, to a large extent, we have been responsible for their plight. Unless I can get an assurance from the Government that they will do that when this gift is sent from the House, I shall ask the House not to agree to send the gift.
§ Mr. Richard Holt (Langbaurgh)When my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House rose to speak, I had not intended to intervene, but as the Member in whose constituency Captain Cook was born, schooled and raised, I draw attention to the fact that the 200th anniversary is intended as a joyous occasion. Until the last few remarks, it has been, with parties in Australia and around the world. Any Australian who wants to come to the constituency of Captain Cook's birth this year will be made most welcome by my constituents. They send their good wishes with the chair to the people of Australia. We look forward to the 300th, 400th and 500th anniversaries. They should always remember, "Come back to Langbaurgh in between times."
§ Mr. Tony Banks (Newham, North-West)I welcome the sending of a gift to Australia to mark the 200th anniversary. I suppose that whoever is chosen from the House to deliver the chair will not be travelling in steerage 677 class, in the same way that the convicts and people who were sent to Australia, did. Many were not, according to our interpretation today, convicts; they were just victims of that nasty class system that prevailed in the 18th and 19th centuries and still exists today. Following what the hon. Member for Langbaurgh (Mr. Holt) said, I make the point that there is a certain arrogance in us acting as if Captain Cook discovered Australia. He went there 200 years ago and found a country that aborigines had been living in, as my right hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) said, for 40,000 years.
If the humble Address is also to be sent, I hope that it will include a protest on behalf of many animal lovers at the cruel slaughter of kangaroos and horses. [Interruption.] Hon. Members might sneer, but many people are concerned about the inhumane treatment of kangaroos and elephants in Australia, shot by people leaning out of helicopters. If we are to send any form of humble Address with the chair, we should send, on behalf of all animal lovers, a protest and hope that the Australians will take a more civilised attitude to the wildlife they are fortunate to have in that great country.
§ Mr. Tam Dalyell (Linlithgow)The House of Commons should be discriminating about exactly what we celebrate. I declare something of a personal interest, in that there are many more people of my name in the Sydney and Melbourne telephone books than in the telephone books of Edinburgh and Glasgow. That is because many Scots, including some of my family, were despatched to Australia for dissent. My hon. Friend the Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) has put a serious case about the treatment of aborigines. Many people were sent to Australia against their will from these islands, and they would find it odd that 200 years later the democratically elected House of Commons is sending the gift and address.
At the end of the first world war, a distinguished Australian, Dr. Elsie Dalywell, was the greatest expert on rickets. She came here with the ANZAC forces and told my parents about the history of our family who arrived in Australia. It was not only uncomfortable but there was a good deal of oppression. Anybody who has followed the writings of Professor Kenneth Cable and others will know that what I am saying is historically correct. There is a serious question about whether the House of Commons should be celebrating the 200th anniversary, because of what happened to our people who were sent to Australia and what happened to the aborigines. Let us celebrate those things that ought to be celebrated and be a bit careful about what we are doing.
§ Mr. Dennis Skinner (Bolsover)I want to know who will take the gift. Will you, Mr. Speaker, be selecting the people who take the humble Address and the chair? Will it be the usual channels? Will any of those 20 rebels who voted against the Tory establishment on Friday be selected, or have they lost their opportunity? Has the Chief Whip already decided that they have no chance? Will the 678 humble Address be taken when there is a test match on? If there is to be a Liberal or somebody from the alliance, who will pick that person? Will that person come from the provisional wing, from the official wing or from the merged party, if they achieve a merged party? Will the selection be delayed until the Liberals and SDP have sorted themselves out?
May I make one last plea? Do not put me on the list — and, for God's sake, do not send Sir Robert Armstrong.
§ Mr. SpeakerThe Question is—
§ Mr. HefferWhat about a reply to the debate?
§ Mr. SpeakerI am putting the Question. The House proceeded to a Division
§ Mr. Tony BanksOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker—when I manage to get this wretched hat on; I have not been to many operas recently. During the debate I inadvertently said that Australians were guilty of shooting elephants. I hasten to add that, as far as I am aware, there are no elephants in Australia. I promise that I have not been drinking large quantities of Foster's lager and that those elephants are neither pink, black, nor grey. Therefore, I wish to have the record duly corrected.
§ Mr. SpeakerI shall see that it is. Did the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) wish to raise a point of order? I may have been somewhat hasty in putting the Question, and that may have bothered him.
§ Mr. HefferOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I tried to ask whether we could have a reply to some of the points that I raised with the Government. If—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I say again that I was somewhat hasty in putting the Question. I think that the right thing to do is to call the Division off and I call the Leader of the House to respond.
§ Mr. WakehamFirst I shall reply to the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner). I understand that it is not intended that the gift should be presented formally by representatives of both Houses. Instead, it will take its place in the Parliament House along with several comparable gifts from other Commonwealth countries in time for the formal opening ceremony.
On the wider questions, hon. Gentlemen have made their points and I am sure that they will be read and noted by those concerned in the matter, but I cannot comment in substance on any of them.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§
Resolved,
That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that Her Majesty will give directions that, to mark the Bicentenary in 1988 of the first European settlement of Australia and the opening of the new Parliament House in Canberra, a gift of a Vice-Regal Chair be made, on behalf of both Houses of Parliament, to the Parliament of the Commonwealth of Australia.
§ To be presented by Privy Councillors or Members of Her Majesty's Household.