NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (IMPROVED PROVISION OF SERVICES) BILL (Hansard, 15 January 1988)

Hon. Members
Object.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Objection taken; Second Reading what day?

§ Mrs. Alice Mahon (Halifax)
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I think that it is cowardly of Conservative Members to hide behind anonymity on a matter as crucial as the National Health Service and I wish 640 that Conservative Members shouting, "Object", could be named. I would like to name the next available date for Second Reading—Friday next.

§ Mr. Jeremy Corbyn (Islington, North)
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. In the last Parliament, many disagreements arose on Friday afternoons about the blocking of private Members' Bills by hirelings of the Government who hide behind the Dispatch Box and the Front Bench and refuse to stand up and say on what basis they object and who they are.
The Chair has been approached on this subject on many occasions and many hon. Members have expressed concern that it is an abuse of the procedures of the House that the blocking mechanism is used behind the cloak of anonymity — in this case blocking a very effective measure to improve the Health Service. Would you, Sir, be prepared to rule that, for the duration of this Parliament, you will always insist that the hon. Member blocking a Bill stands up and records his or her objection to it?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
This matter has been dealt with on several occasions on Friday afternoons. The position has been made quite clear. What has happened this afternoon is not unusual. It happens frequently on Friday afternoons, especially when private Members' Bills are before the House.

§ Mr. Greville Janner (Leicester, West)
rose—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. Secondly, I remind the House that the shout of "Object," is no different from the collection of voices when a motion is put to the House. Under those circumstances, it is quite impossible for the Chair to ask or insist that hon. Members expressing their view through their voice he identified by being asked to stand, or in any other way. The matter has been dealt with on previous occasions. I have it in mind that I must follow the practices and conventions of the House, and if hon. Members feel sufficiently strongly about the matter, any changes should be pursued through the appropriate Committee of the House.

§ Mr. Skinner
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There is a way out of this problem, as you are probably aware. From time to time, there are deliberations, in what is known as a Speaker's Conference, on all sorts of matters appertaining to the business of the House and to electoral considerations. In view of the abuse that is taking place, with people refusing to stand up and be named, it is high time that the matter was put before that Conference. For instance, in relation to the Concessionary Television Licences for State Retirement Pensioners Bill—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. I am not taking any "for instances"—not at 2.50 pm on a Friday.

§ Mr. Max Madden (Bradford, West)
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

§ Mr. Janner
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. Let me deal with one at a time, please. The hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) is very familiar with our proceedings and knows that the right place to discuss this matter—if there is substance in it — is the Procedure Committee. If the hon. Gentleman believes that there is substance in his 641 complaint, no doubt he will consider referring the matter, through the appropriate channels, to the Procedure Committee.

§ Mr. Madden
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Are we not in a new position with regard to this procedure? The voices of Conservative Members that were raised in objection to the National Health Service (Improved Provision of Services) Bill, which was presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mrs. Mahon), of which I am a sponsor, and which seeks to improve health care services for every person in the United Kingdom—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman must make a point of order.

§ Mr. Madden
How can we know whether those who objected to this important measure have interests in privatising the NHS—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. We are going over well-trodden ground. It has been made clear many times that it is not the responsibility of the Chair to try to identify those who may have expressed an objection, or to question their motives. It is not a matter for the Chair.

§ Mr. Patrick McLoughlin (Derbyshire, West)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Since some hon. Members have been named, it is important to put on record the fact that one may object to a Bill, not because of its contents but because—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. I do not think we can start having a discussion about reasons—

§ Mr. Corbyn
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

§ Mr. Janner
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. The House is becoming increasingly discourteous. Hon. Members know that they should not rise when the occupant of the Chair is on his feet dealing with a matter which has been raised. I should tell the hon. Member for Derbyshire, West (Mr. McLoughlin) that this afternoon is not the time to discuss the reasons why hon. Members may have expressed objections.

§ Mr. Janner
I raised this matter last Session because it was extremely important to know whether an hon. Member was entitled to address the House unless he or she was standing. Mr. Speaker ruled that the matter should be considered by the Procedure Committee. The vast majority of Back-Bench Members believe that it is wrong for an anonymous person to be able to object to a Bill. In view of the strong views of hon. Members on both sides of the House—we accept your statement that the matter should go to the Procedure Committee — will you be good enough to say that the Chair will seek guidance from the Procedure Committee about a procedure which is wholly unsatisfactory and extremely wicked?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
I remember that point being the subject of discussion last Session. The hon. and learned Gentleman will recall that it was pointed out then that expressing an objection from a sedentary position is no different from occasions when the Chair puts a Question to the House and collects the voices. If it was thought 642 necessary for those registering an objection to be identified or to stand when they made that objection, we would have to follow a similar practice when a Question was put. The House should consider the difficulty that that would have posed to the Chair and the House this afternoon when more than 500 hon. Members were in the Chamber.
However, let me add that it is my recollection that the Chair did not rule that the matter be referred to the Procedure Committee. Indeed, it would not be appropriate for the Chair to seek to do that. The Chair would have suggested on that occasion that, if the hon. Gentleman felt it appropriate to do so, he or his hon. Friends could seek to have the matter discussed in the Procedure Committee. That was what I was suggesting this afternoon to the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner). I was not expressing a view other than the one that I have expressed in dealing with points of order.

Several hon. Members
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. We cannot sit here indefinitely on a Friday afternoon listening to multiplying points of order.

Several hon. Members
rose—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. I have to call six hon. Members, and an hon Member has the Adjournment debate.

§ Mr. D. N. Campbell-Savours (Workington)
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Perhaps I can help you. The matter has been referred to the Procedure Committee. It has been debated at length, and the Procedure Committee has produced a report. The report has not been debated by Parliament, because the Leader of the House has not found time for it.
We want the matter debated. If it is the view of the House, or of Members of it, that we have not dealt with it satisfactorily, hon. Members are free to amend the report and to move resolutions that may be carried by the whole House.
Secondly, as we found in Committee, there are reasons why Back Benchers might wish to intervene and prevent the development of proceedings on the Second Reading of a Bill. One reason is that they do not want the Ballot to be jumped, so that Bills that come after other Bills manage to secure positions in Committee—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman has been helpful, until the point that he is now raising. I said earlier that I did not consider it right or useful for the House to try to discuss the motives that lead hon. Members to shout "Object" on the proposed Second Reading of a Bill.

§ Mr. Campbell-Savours
rose——

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. I said that the hon. Gentleman had been helpful, and I think that the information that he has given us should be borne in mind by hon. Members. However, he must recognise that the question of debating in time for the debate on a particular report from a Committee is a matter not for the Chair, but for the Leader of the House. If hon. Members feel strongly about the matter, no doubt they will pursue it with him. Now, can we get on?

§ Mr. Graham Allen (Nottingham, North)
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Would we not have had far 643 fewer points of order this afternoon if the hon. Member for Derbyshire, West (Mr. McLoughlin) had admitted that it was he who objected to the Concessionary Television Licences for State Retirement Pensioners Bill?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. That matter has been dealt with in the course of earlier points of order.

§ Mr. Madden
On a separate point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I also ask for inquiries to be made into the denial of drafting assistance to my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mrs. Mahon) in the preparation of her National Health Service (Improved Provisions of Services) Bill? I consider it disgraceful that she has been prevented from receiving such assistance in bringing forward that important Bill, and I think that insult has been added to injury by the fact that it has been blocked today by unnamed people. Because we do not yet have a Register of Members' Interests, we do not know who is speaking for whom—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. The hon. Gentleman is now seeking to raise a whole string of matters, some of which are certainly not matters for me. Questions of drafting of Bills and drafting assistance are not a matter for the Chair, and will no doubt be pursued through the appropriate channels.

§ Ms. Clare Short (Birmingham, Ladywood)
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. There is serious concern about the issue of people who object to ten-minute Bills not having to identify themselves to the Chamber. The debate is not being prolonged simply to waste time; we are asking for your assistance to sort out a procedural issue that causes great disgruntlement in the House. As I understand it, that is part of your role, Mr. Deputy Speaker.
You argued earlier, Sir, that it was common practice to take the voices before deciding whether a vote should be taken. I put it to you that that is quite a different issue. If a vote is taken, everyone who votes has his vote recorded, and has to stand up for the position that he takes. In this case, the hon. Member who blocks a Bill is deliberately not identified. This is a serious procedural issue. We need your assistance to resolve it. It is not enough for you to say that we may refer the matter to a Committee. I should like to ask for your help to sort the matter out.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
No, it is the task of the Chair to ensure observance of the Standing Orders and the practices and conventions of the House. It is not my task to create procedure, merely to apply it. Its creation is a matter for others. The hon. Lady might reflect on the advice that I have already given and see whether it might not be the best advice to pursue.

§ Mr. Corbyn
Further to the point of order. Mr. Deputy Speaker. As you know, I took a close interest in this matter in the previous Parliament and I have suffered the same fate as my hon. Friend the Member for Halifax (Mrs. Mahon) seems to have suffered. When she rose to move 644 that her Bill be read a Second time, there was a great deal of noise on both sides of the Chamber. In some cases the noise might have represented support for the Bill, and it might have represented opposition in others. It was not clear whether anyone was objecting. It was not clear who was objecting. Can you be certain, Mr. Deputy Speaker, who objected to the Bill? My hon. Friend the Member for Nottingham, North (Mr. Allen)—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
No, no. Order. The hon. Gentleman is going over ground that we have already covered. I have made it clear on several occasions that it is not the responsibility of the Chair to identify individuals. It is sufficient that the voice be heard and the voice was clearly heard calling, "Object."

§ Mr. Faulds
On a point of order. I am in somewhat of a sad quandary. When I introduced—when I attempted to get some progress on — my Community Health Councils (Access to Information) Bill, which was got through the Chamber in the previous Parliament by an admirable hon. Friend of mine and only fell because of the election intervening before it could go to the Lords and become law, I had understood from the Government Whips, who were extremely helpful, may I say, that this Bill would go through on the nod. I am very, very surprised to find that the discipline behind the Chief Whips on those Benches is so appalling that some uninformed, unintelligent, unhelpful hon. Gentleman has wrecked what was a quite valuable little Bill.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
I can understand the hon. Gentleman's resentment. Doubtless he will have another opportunity. I have to say again that it is not for the Chair to try to identify those who shout, "Object."

§ Mr. Frank Dobson (Holborn and St. Pancras)
If it would help, I could tell you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that the Opposition intend, through the usual channels, to press the Leader of the House to bring to the House the report of the Procedure Committee on this matter in an effort to protect the rights of Back Benchers from Government Whips getting people to object to Bills. We are not very hopeful of the outcome, however, on the day of the unprecedented action of the Government in putting a three-line Whip on a private Member's Bill.

§ Mr. Hal Miller (Bromsgrove)
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Can I declare an interest in taking part in that debate, as I had a private Member's Bill which was blocked by Labour's objections and which would greatly have facilitated the education of children in Britain?

Several Hon. Members
rose——

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. The hon. Member for Holborn and St. Pancras (Mr. Dobson) has been helpful and showed how the House might make progress in these matters. I hope that the House can feel content with the advice that he has offered, and that we can now make progress.