HC Deb 17 February 1988 vol 127 cc965-7
6. Mr. Ieuan Wyn Jones

To ask the Secretary of State for the Environment when he last met the chairman of the Housing Corporation; and what matters were discussed.

Mr. Waldegrave

I last met the chairman on 11 January, when we discussed the funding of housing co-operatives and the Housing Corporation's approved development programme for 1988–89.

Mr. Jones

When the hon. Gentleman next meets the chairman of the Housing Corporation, will he discuss with him the genuine concern of many housing associations about the implications of the Housing Bill? The Bill will mean that rents in the housing association sector will be raised to such levels that tenants will be paying half their incomes in rent. Will he also tell him that some low-paid tenants will be severely penalised and that some people will be deterred from working because of the substantial drop in income as a result of the loss of housing benefit?

Mr. Waldegrave

I do not think that the hon. Gentleman is quite right about this matter. The new Housing Corporation for Wales, which no doubt he will welcome, like the Housing Corporation in England, will be able to have different percentages of grant alongside private money. That will increase output and maintain rents at reasonable levels.

Mr. Squire

Will my hon. Friend confirm that many of the excellent provisions of the Housing Bill will enhance the role of housing associations and give them a better opportunity to play their traditional role of housing people who are earning less than average wages?

Mr. Waldegrave

My hon. Friend is right. The purpose of the new mixed-funding arrangements is to enable housing associations to carry out more of their traditional functions, helping the people whom they need to help by bringing in private money alongside public money.

Mr. Allan Roberts

Does the Minister agree that that is not the view that all the housing association movement takes of the Secretary of State's legislation? The housing association movement, and everyone associated with housing associations, want a housing association tenancy established to protect the nature of the housing association movement—everyone except the Secretary of State and the person whom he appointed, his friend, Sir Hugh Cubitt, to run the Housing Corporation. Why will the Secretary of State not allow the Minister to accept what everybody wants—a housing association tenancy?

Mr. Waldegrave

Characteristically, the hon. Gentleman has not got his facts right. My right hon. Friend did not appoint Sir Hugh Cubitt, who is an admirable chairman of the Housing Corporation.

Mr. Roberts

A mere technicality.

Mr. Waldegrave

The hon. Gentleman says that the facts are a mere technicality. I agree. The point about a housing association tenancy will be best met by the proposal for a chartered social housing sector, which we discussed exhaustively and exhaustingly in Committee.

Mr. Simon Hughes

Did the Minister discuss with the chairman the paradox of Government policy that the implication of the Housing Bill for the Housing Corporation, with all the approval of new landlords, the approval of landlords after the establishment of housing action trusts, the mixed funding and additional housing association funding, is that there will be a large centralised quango, much larger than any housing authority? Would not the best solution be to devolve the Housing Corporation's responsibilities regionally in England, as has been done in Wales, and democratise the Housing Corporation?

Mr. Waldegrave

The hon. Gentleman will know that there are effectively separate corporations in Scotland and Wales. I do not think that we would yet want to go down the route of dividing it up in England, but I hear what the hon. Gentleman says.