Transport Act 1985 (Hansard, 17 March 1986)

3. Mr. Bob Edwards
asked the Secretary of State for Transport what discussions he has had with passenger transport executive staff concerning transitional arrangements following from abolition of the metropolitan counties and implementation of the Transport Act 1985.

§ 5. Mr. Eastham
asked the Secretary of State for Transport if he is satisfied with transitional arrangements for public transport in the metropolitan counties.

§ The Minister of State, Department of Transport (Mr. David Mitchell)
I have on a number of occasions during the past few months met representatives of the new PTAs and their PTEs to discuss various aspects of public transport in the metropolitan counties, including the transitional arrangements consequent upon the Local Government Act 1985 and the Transport Act 1985. These arrangements seem to be reasonable.

Mr. Edwards
Is the Minister aware that the trade unions concerned do not think that the arrangements are reasonable? They are afraid that national agreements are being srcapped which will lead to absolute starvation competition among the workers in the transport industry.

§ Mr. Mitchell
I can tell the hon. Gentleman that £3 million has been allocated for the west midlands for this purpose. We shall consider applications for borrowing consent, should that prove to be insufficient.

§ Mr. Eastham
Is it not a fact that none of the local transport authorities believe that the Government are improving the services, and that every authority is predicting chaos on public transport? Are not local authorities saying constantly that they are now underfunded and, consequently, are introducing massive fare increases and massive redundancies?

§ Mr. Mitchell
For the Greater Manchester area, about £83 million is available. That should enable the purchase of a substantial number of additional services over and above those registered. The hon. Gentleman and other Labour Members representing metropolitan county areas have known since last summer that if they persuaded the PTAs to start gradually increasing fares, more bus workers jobs would be saved. They have failed to do that, and they have failed the busmen.

§ Sir Peter Emery
Will my hon. Friend look carefully at the strange arrangements that have been made by the GLC, particularly the institution of a large number of bus lanes and large islands in the centre of the road, which seem intended to do only one thing—bring traffic to a standstill?

§ Mr. Mitchell
I note what my hon. Friend has said, but his point is somewhat outside the question.

§ Mr. Parris
In the past, have metropolitan authorities been getting more, or less, than their fair share of the total amount of subsidy?

§ Mr. Mitchell
My hon. Friend has put his finger on a good way of measuring the appropriate support. Expenditure per person of the county population on bus subsidy is £2 in Oxfordshire, £3 in Warwickshire, £23 in West Yorkshire, £30 in Greater Manchester, £53 in Merseyside and £60 in South Yorkshire.

§ Mr. Snape
They keep voting for it.

§ Mr. Mitchell
In other words, the expenditure in the metropolitan counties has been grossly extravagant compared with expenditure in the rest of the country.

§ Mr. Snape
They vote for it.

§ Mr. Mitchell
The hon. Member for West Bromwich, East (Mr. Snape), who keeps interrupting from a sedentary position, should know that, unfortunately, there is no direct co-relationship between the ratepayers and the voters.

§ Mr. Madden
Will the Minister of State accept that when he comes to Bradford on Wednesday he will find a large number of people who want to maintain a good bus service in West Yorkshire, who are disgusted at the proportion of services that will be cut, and are dismayed that up to 800 bus staff will be made redundant? Will he put his arguments to the ratepayers and electors of Bradford, who want to keep the best possible transport services and do not want to see the Government kill them all?

§ Mr. Mitchell
Perhaps the hon. Member also wishes me to tell the people of Bradford that the high level of rates is part of the reason for the high level of unemployment. The people of Bradford are as anxious as those in other parts of the country to serve in the increasing job opportunities being created by this Government.

§ Mr. Stott
The Secretary of State, as well as the Minister of State, have made much of the figure of 15,000 services being registered. Would the Minister not have done a greater service to the House of Commons had he been more honest and expressed that figure as a percentage? Is he aware that I am advised that in Greater Manchester, only 40 per cent. of the services have been registered as profitable, leaving 60 per cent. of the routes currently being run as unprofitable? Will not those groups have to be subsidised by the ratepayers or the taxpayers? Do the Secretary of State and the Minister of State not know full well that the money allocated to the metropolitan authorities falls far below the level required to maintain those services? If the Minister is not aware of that, he should have been with me in Saddleworth last Thursday night, when I spoke in the constituency of the hon. Member for Littleborough and Saddleworth (Mr. Dickens), where not one route has been registered as profitable? If he cannot tell me, will he tell his hon. Friend whether those buses will still be running after October?

§ Mr. Mitchell
I can give the hon. Gentleman the information for which he asks, and I hope that he will be pleased when he hears it. Between two thirds and three quarters of the routes being run now have been registered. In addition, I can tell him that although in Greater Manchester a smaller proportion of routes are registered, a much larger allocation of finance is available—about £83 million. One could buy many bus routes with £83 million.

§ Mr. Dickens
As my constituency has been mentioned, is my hon. Friend surprised to learn that the people of Littleborough and Saddleworth have been grumbling for many years about their deplorable bus services? We hope that the plans laid before Parliament will give those people the excellent service for which they have hoped for many years.

§ Mr. Mitchell
In recent years there has been a chronic decline in bus services throughout the country. We have every reason to believe that the changes that we have introduced will stem that decline and, in many places, lead to additional services.