Welsh Language

HC Deb 24 July 1985 vol 83 cc1235-51 5.25 am

Mr. Dafydd Wigley (Caernarfon)

I am glad of this opportunity, even at an unusual hour, to raise in the House, before the recess, questions relating to the implications of the ruling by the industrial tribunal at Colwyn Bay last Friday on matters relating to the Welsh language and the social services in the county of Gwynedd.

There has been a massive reaction of outrage in my county at the decision reached at the tribunal hearing because of its possible implications for people in that whole area, namely, the clients of the social services department. I do not wish to dwell too long on the actual details of the case, although it is impossible to consider the effects of the decision without referring briefly to the complaint. To understand the strength of feeling against the tribunal decision, it is necessary to look at the manner in which the matter came to be considered by the Commission for Racial Equality, which sponsored the two-person case.

The case involved Mrs. Phyllis Jones of Amlwch and Mrs. Justine Doyle of Bangor, who were aggrieved that they had been turned down for a number of jobs by the social services department of Gwynedd county council. The jobs were in residential homes for the elderly and mentally handicapped in Ynys Môn. They alleged that they had been turned down because they did not speak Welsh. The county defended its position and insisted that to be able to speak Welsh was necessary to give the residents a full service in line with the county's longstanding bilingual policy.

A significant proportion of the residents of these homes have Welsh as their first language. The objective of the county's bilingual policy is to provide services in whichever language—Welsh or English—is preferred by the client. The county has always held that to provide linguistic freedom for those who receive a service from the authority, there is a need for those who provide that service to be bilingual. The county maintains that that is especially relevant to social services, which deal in direct personal services.

To the amazement of my constituents, which has been passed on to me in strident and impassioned terms, the tribunal decided against Gwynedd county council. In the words of its chairman, Mr. John Bellis: We take the view that the imposition of a condition of Welsh speaking has been a condition of employment, and can't be justified in a mixed language society in Gwynedd. According to press reports, he went on to say To be Welsh speaking was not a genuine occupational qualification. Several matters arise from that case. The first, which has aroused enormous comment in Gwynedd, is whether such a case should ever have been brought before the Commission for Racial Equality. The Race Relations Act 1976 was never intended for such purposes. That is quite clear from the White Paper which preceded it. Ministers who were involved with the Bill's passage at that time have confirmed this. The Act defined that a person discriminates against another if: on racial grounds he treats the other less favourably. The Act defines "racial grounds" as: any of the following grounds, namely colour, race, nationality or ethnic or national origins. It says nothing about language. yet I understand that language has been accepted by the commission as a basis of indirect discrimination.

I put it to the House that to require a person to speak Welsh, or English for that matter, to do a job in the way required by the employer has nothing to do with race. Plenty of Welsh people do not speak Welsh, and many English, Scots, Irish and, in my home town of Caernarfon, Chinese do speak Welsh. To assert that the question has anything to do with race is absolute nonsense, and the commission is abusing its responsibilities by allowing itself to be used in such a way.

The inappropriateness of considering matters relating to the Welsh language in Wales under the Act was recognised by the Government in Dyson v. Department of Health and Social Security in Shrewsbury a couple of years ago, when the Treasury Solicitor argued on behalf of the Government that a language requirement would not be discriminatory under the Act. Likewise, the Manela case in the House of Lords more recently established two essential ingredients for a case to fall within racial discrimination, and neither of them related to language.

In another case, Fawkes v. Dyfed health authority in 1979, it was found: The speech therapist who would have been appointed to work in Ceredigion would have been providing persons of a racial group, namely, Welsh-speaking Welshmen, with personal services promoting their welfare, and that service could most effectively be provided by a person who was Welsh-speaking. That case is important, for it not only found against the proposition of racial discrimination in these circumstances, but related to matters covered by clause 35 of the 1976 Act, which states: Nothing in Parts II to IV shall render unlawful any act done in offording persons of a particular racial group access to facilities or services to meet the special needs of person of that group in regard to their education, training or welfare, or any ancillary benefits. I stress the word "welfare".

Even if my contention that the language question should have nothing to do with race is refuted, there is a specific provision in the Act to cover the access to welfare services of the type involved in the Colwyn Bay case. The tribunal disregarded both the provisions of clause 35 and the finding in the Fawkes case in reaching its astounding decision. The chairman's explanation for his disregard of clause 35 was, in the words of one lawyer, "perverse and ludicrous", and I hope that the Government will look carefully at that part of the written decision when they study it.

There is a further case which casts even more doubt on the validity of the tribunal's decision, and that was Sweeting v. Amgueddfa Mor Porthmadog in 1983. In that case, it was found perfectly reasonable that the trustees of the museum should have insisted that the manager should be Welsh-speaking, and the case recognised that there is a general discretion on language issues in the sphere of appointments.

That tribunal was unanimous in its decision, according to its chairman, Mr. Day—I refer to paragraph 15 of the decision in case No. 23217/82—and it is fascinating to note that one member of that tribunal was apparently a Mr. D. L. Hawkins, who, I am told, was also a member of the recent Colwyn Bay tribunal. I trust that the House will want to know on what basis there should have been such a change of interpretation in the law in the last two years when the law has not changed.

It is interesting to note, however, that, apparently after the Sweeting case, a Mr. Calvert, who had conducted the Race Relations Commission case, said on a Granada television programme that the commission had its eye on Gwynedd and was particularly keeping its eye on local government. The whole case stinks of vindictiveness and a vendetta by the Race Relations Commission and by the tribunal to put the boot into the Welsh language.

The Minister should confirm whether it is true that the commission is only now, after that case, intending to set up a body to consider the implications for it, as a commission, of matters relating to the Welsh language. If that is true, where on earth has the commission been for the last nine years, and is it its normal policy to shoot first and only thereafter to find out the facts?

Perhaps the Minister will confirm that there was a division of opinion under the Race Relations Commission about whether the case should ever have been brought forward and whether Mr. German, the only Welsh member, I understand, opposed the commission's action in the matter but was overruled.

In any event, the Colwyn Bay case calls for a detailed review by the Government of the working both of the Commission for Racial Equality and the industrial tribunal structure to protect Welsh-speaking people from the type of ignorance and prejudice shown in the case. There is also a need to review the Act to clarify what it is meant to do and what is not appropriate under such legislation.

I contend that the actions of Gwynedd county council were not discriminatory in law, were within the exceptions provided by section 5 of the 1976 Act, were justified on social and linguistic grounds and, in any event, were valid under section 35 of the Act. I contend also that the tribunal's decision was perverse and malicious. The appropriateness of having a language requirement for a job in Gwynedd—this principle holds in the rest of Wales although its application may vary from area to area—must revolve around the right of the consumer to have the service in the language of his choice, be that Welsh or English. The Gwynedd county council has adopted, since its inception in 1974, a bilingual policy and has maintained the policy that to give its clients the freedom of choice of language, the council must operate in a bilingual manner.

There are some jobs in which employees have no interface with the public and there is no pressing requirement for them to speak Welsh. In jobs which involve dealing with the public, employees need to speak both languages. It is unacceptable in a largely Welsh-speaking area that the public should be expected to change from their first language to their second for the convenience of local government officers, who are there to serve the public.

We must remember that at the last census my constituency was 84 per cent. Welsh speaking. Ynys Môn, where the jobs which were the subject of the Colwyn Bay tribunal were located, was 62 per cent. Welsh speaking. About two out of every three letters that I receive from my constituents are written in the Welsh language. Welsh is the normal vehicle of everyday life. Many young children are virtually monoglot Welsh speakers and many of the elderly are markedly happier in the Welsh language. They can express themselves more fluently, can comprehend more clearly and are generally more relaxed and comfortable if they can relate to those around them through the Welsh language. These elderly people have probably spoken nothing but Welsh in their homes throughout their lives. It would be invidious if, having to enter a home for the elderly in their latter years, they were put in an alien atmosphere in which they were at least uncomfortable and at worst positively unhappy.

That is no imaginary fear, for I have received frequent complaints over the years. They come usually from the children of elderly people, who tell me of the need of their mothers or fathers to have staff looking after them who can speak their language. To be fair, the complaints have been much more oriented against the Gwynedd district health authority than the county council.

More recently there have been complaints about private residential homes. Only last week I received two separate complaints about a home near Caenarfon which had originally been run by Welsh speakers. When they sold out, an English-speaking family took over. I have nothing against them personally, but the occupants of the elderly persons' residence were distraught, according to two constituents who came to see me separately. For the first time in their lives, these elderly people have had to live through the medium of an English-speaking home. It may not be easy to do anything about the private homes, but I become increasingly uneasy when I hear complaints of the sort that I have outlined. However, in homes run by Gwynedd county council social services department, the linguistic needs of each individual resident should be catered for. English-speaking residents should be helped by staff who are able and willing to chat to them in English, and likewise Welsh-speaking residents should have the same facility in their own language.

Against this background, it is to fly in the face of reality to claim, as the tribunal did, that To be Welsh speaking was not a genuine occupational qualification". If I quote the proportions of Welsh-speaking elderly people who are resident in the homes, it will give the House an idea of the pattern At Plas Penlan, Llangefni, which is one of the homes in question before the tribunal, there are 30 residents and 29 of these are Welsh speaking. Over the whole of Anglesey, 77 per cent. of the residents of county council homes for the elderly are Welsh speaking and 23 per cent. are riot. In the Arfon and Dwyfor areas, which include my constituency, 89 per cent. are Welsh speaking and only 11 per cent. are not. It is clear that the Welsh language needs of the residents must be taken into account for their welfare and happiness.

Some will argue that, as many of the Welsh speakers are almost as fluent in English, too much regard should not be given to this question. I contend that it is not only a matter of convenience and desirability for the elderly to live through the medium of the Welsh language if they wish, but a question of elementary human rights. If there is a clash between the rights of employees to speak English and the rights of the elderly to have their services through the medium of Welsh, I have no doubt that in a caring, compassionate society the rights of the elderly should take precedence.

As people get older and more frail, there is sometimes a tendency to live in the past—often, a monoglot Welsh-speaking past. As the chairman in the Fawkes v. Dyfed health authority case noted in 1979: Elderly patients…tended to revert to their first language. In evidence during this case which ruled out racial discrimination when a Welsh requirement was stipulated for a job in Dyfed, Dr. Glyn Rees drew particular attention to the strong possibility that a non-Welsh-speaking person could be unaware of his or her disadvantage when communicating with a Welsh-speaking person in English. This is an extremely important point, as many English speakers have little comprehension of speaking in any other language and have difficulty facing those who are using their second language.

The case that I have made in relation to homes for the elderly is obviously even more valid with regard to homes for those with mental handicaps. There has been an enormous reaction in my constituency against the tribunal's decision, and our office in Caernarfon has been flooded with callers and telephone calls protesting and demanding fair play for the Welsh language. More than 1,000 people have signed a pledge that they will not henceforth, because of this case, use the English language in talk or in writing to any government official, whether local or central. That shows the reaction of the people.

I shall quote some of the letters that I have received. I shall quote in Welsh a letter that I received from Mr.Lewis from Dyfed. I believe that it is in order for to do so and then translate. The letter stated: Nonsens pur yw cymysgu cymhwyster i swydd a rhagfarn hiliol. Mae'r gallu i gyfathrebu, a hynny yn iaith y bobl yn eich gofal, yn gymhwyster hanfodol i berson mewn galwedigaeth gofal. Ymddengys fod yna ormod o grancod unllygeidiog yn Ilechu o dan ambarel y Comisiwn Hiliol. The letter translates as follows: It is utter nonsense to mix up qualifications for a job with racial prejudice. The ability to communicate, in the language of those people in your care, is an essential qualification in a caring profession. It appears that there are too many one-eyed cranks lurking under the umbrella of the Commission for Racial Equality. I have received from Mrs. Margaret Moore and 20 people living in the Llandudno area—this will be of interest to the Minister—a copy of a letter sent to the Commission for Racial Equality. The letter states: We, the undersigned, are not all Welsh speaking, but this does not blind us to the rights of all people to speak their native language in certain circumstances and at certain times. We should have thought that even rough justice would not deem it a privilege for people to speak their mother tongue in their own country. However, we are prepared to put aside that point at the moment and concentrate on another aspect of this matter. Vulnerable people—e.g. minorities, must be protected; the sick, frail, mentally confused and children have a real need to be understood without having to resort to a foreign language. Physical caring is not enough; this is the caring of people for animals and it ignores the needs of the human spirit. Your recent decision at Colwyn Bay puts the rights of two women to work in a particular employment above the rights of others to communicate in their own tongue. The two applicants have a remedy in their own hands—they can learn Welsh. What remedy is there for the old people whose rights have been so cruelly dismissed? Another letter recalls the words of a former inspector of taxes, Mr. Norman Price, who was non-Welsh speaking when he came to Porthmadog. He said: I could not do justice to the taxpayer or to the Government if I did not learn the Welsh language. A trade union officer has also made a clear stand in support of the needs of the clients when appointments are made in bilingual areas. Mr. Robert Skillicorn, area officer of NUPE, said that he was appalled that the Commission for Racial Equality should have taken this case on and said that such action was an infamous racist slur on the community of Gwynedd. Another NUPE officer has expressed misgivings about the effect of the decision on inner city areas in England, where there are minority communities with special linguistic needs.

A problem with the whole issue has been the commission's failure to differentiate between racial prejudice and linguistic needs. When I went to its offices in Victoria last year to discuss the matter I got the impression that it was wholly ignorant of circumstances in Wales, and surprisingly lacking in empathy or sympathy, given that it should have some feeling for communities with their own cultural dimensions. Given that the Commission for Racial Equality deals mainly with ethnic minorities of English cities, it is ironic to read the comments of the Swann report entitled "Education for All", which was published in March. Page 410 states We are convinced that a facility, or even a qualification, in a community language should be seen as providing any young person with a skill of direct relevance to work in areas of ethnic minority settlement in fields such as social services, nursing and education, where dealing with people is so important. We would therefore expect to see schools and the careers service emphasising the value of languages in such careers, and employers, particularly local authorities, seeing language skills as one of the criteria to be used when making appointments in these fields. The commission which insists on using race discrimination law intended for ethnic minorities to prevent services from being provided in the Welsh language disregards one of the central themes of modern thinking in relation to linguistic minorities, that is that welfare services should be provided in their languages, as the Swann report advocated.

I cited those examples to show that the case, about which I feel so strongly, is based not on nationalistic reasoning or a cultural analysis alone, but on the sensible needs of people in a bilingual community, and the responsibility of both local and central government to respond to those needs. The Welsh Office recognises that, as was shown in a parliamentary answer to my hon. Friend the Member for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Thomas) when the Secretary of State said The guiding principle with appointments to posts in all parts of the Civil Service is that the best available candidate should be selected. This is however in no way inconsistent with giving appropriate weight in the selection process to ability to speak Welsh in cases where this would be an advantage in undertaking the duties of the post concerned taking account of the linguistic situation in Wales."—[Official Report, 17 January 1985; Vol. 71, c. 212.] That answer introduces a further dimension to the argument. Sometimes it is claimed that jobs are given to people solely on their ability to speak Welsh, irrespective of any other qualification. Clearly that would be wrong. The ability to speak Welsh is one of many qualifications for various jobs. It would be as stupid to ignore the need for the other qualifications necessary to undertake a job, as it would be to deny the relevance of the Welsh language as a qualification for many jobs, for example in the social services or in health care.

On some occasions there are no suitable applicants for a job who can speak Welsh, although the job ideally needs a Welsh speaker, and it may be necessary to appoint someone who does not speak Welsh and to train him or her to speak the language, or to appoint someone who speaks Welsh and to give him or her training to learn the necessary skill. Which of the two alternatives is the more practical will vary from case to case. However, it is not acceptable to allow either a stipulation of "Welsh essential" to lead to unsatisfactory appointments, or to make appointments of persons unwilling to accept a need for acquiring communication skills in Welsh. As the Secretary of State said, there need be no incompatibility between those two different alternatives.

Regarding the problems of those seeking employment in Gwynedd, if such a person does not speak Welsh he will find that some jobs are not open to him. Clearly, for the foreseeable future Welsh will always be a prerequisite for some jobs. At the clearest level, a person will be unable to be a Welsh teacher or Welsh newscaster if he or she does not speak the language. In those circumstances it is even more important that the bilingual education policy pursued by Gwynedd county council is allowed to succeed. It should ensure that every young person leaving school in Gwynedd is fairly fluent in both languages, and certainly sufficiently fluent to a enable him or her to meet the requirements of jobs where conversational Welsh is required, such as any jobs in residential homes run by the social services.

It is worth remembering that those who in the past have stood against a bilingual education policy have now caused problems for some non-Welsh speakers in Gwynedd. There is another problem facing people who move into Gwynedd to live and who are not Welsh speakers. My message to such people is, "Please will you realise that you are moving into a bilingual society, and be willing to adapt accordingly."

Many persons have done so successfully and have learnt Welsh, or at least made a fair effort. I salute them. One who has tried hard is the hon. Member for Ynys Môn (Mr. Best), and I hope that his other constituents in Anglesey who have moved in will make an equal effort.

If they do, their welcome will be that much warmer and they will find it easier to integrate into the community. They too can achieve for themselves, with a little effort, enough Welsh to overcome the language criteria for many jobs. This year, for example, Gwynedd county council has appointed both a chief officer and a deputy chief officer who have learnt Welsh in the council's service. In both cases Welsh was essential for the post.

What, therefore, now needs to be done to reverse the damage done to community relations in Gwynedd by this appalling tribunal decision? First, there must clearly be a review of the role of the Commission for Racial Equality in such cases, and possibly new people to serve on it who have a better understanding of areas such as Gwynedd and who will concentrate on their proper role of minimising race difficulties instead of causing them. There should also be an amendment to the Race Relations Act 1976, so that making the Welsh language a qualification for jobs in Wales does not constitute racial discrimination.

Secondly, the Welsh Office must give a positive lead by spelling out to local authorities, perhaps by circular, that they must have due regard to the linguistic needs of Welsh and non-Welsh speakers in the provision of personal social services, and that the requirement of the client should dictate the language in which the service is provided, not vice versa.

Thirdly, Gwynedd county council should put more effort into ensuring that everyone who leaves school in Gwynedd is free from a linguistic handicap that will limit his or her job prospects in the county. It should also make greater efforts to ensure that young school leavers have the other technical skills needed to fill the jobs that are available within the community in Gwynedd.

Fourthly, there is a need for a new Welsh language Act to enshrine in law the fundamental rights of Welsh speakers to use their own language in their own country, and that in order to give each citizen the equal right to use either language in dealing with authority, there needs to be a policy of official bilingualism in Wales.

To make this practical, additional resources will be needed to help people to learn the language, whether to open up a broader range of job opportunities or for whatever other reason. There must also be a powerful and dynamic body to co-ordinate Welsh language education.

There should be an abundance of courses for people to learn the language quickly and effectively. Perhaps a good, symbolic start for a new era of this sort would be for the Secretary of State for Wales himself to undertake to learn the language.

There is a need to review the performance of industrial tribunals, such as that at Colwyn Bay last Friday, to ensure that the members have a full grasp of the community dimensions of the area in winch they operate and to ensure that we have no repeat of the disastrous performance that we saw last week.

If these steps could be secured, some good may yet come out of this unfortunate saga. If no such progress is made, there will be a simmering resentment among the Welsh-speaking community in Gwynedd which the Government will ignore at their peril, and the Commission for Racial Equality will have the doubtful honour of knowing that it has been contributory to creating a bitter community conflict that could take years to dispel.

5.54 am

Mr. Geraint Howells (Ceredigion and Pembroke, North)

I am delighted, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to have caught your eye so early in the morning on this very important issue of the use of the Welsh language—our language.

I have travelled throughout the night to support the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley). There is a principle at stake, which is why many of us are here to support the hon. Gentleman.

The Welsh language is the oldest language spoken within the EEC, and it is our duty to safeguard the interests of our language. For the last few days, I have had the privilege of attending the Royal Welsh show — a national event attended by many thousands of Welsh and non-Welsh speakers. I was delighted to see the Minister at the show. I am sure he will agree that we were both delighted that the commentators were bilingual.

Many hon. Members on both sides of the House have, over the years, worked hard to ensure that the Welsh language is recognised in Wales, as provided in the Act of 1967. As the hon. Member for Caernarfon said, the Act should be upgraded in the years to come. Many of us fought hard for our own television channel on which Welsh would be spoken. Many of us fought hard for bilingual education in Wales. believe that many of us are doing our very best to try to safeguard the interests of our language and culture.

The issue we are debating tonight is different. What one must bear in mind in this debate is the welfare of the old and infirm in our society, for whom the social services have responsibility. In Gwynedd, as in my constituency, I would expect that the vast majority of such people not only speak Welsh but prefer to express themselves in the Welsh language, feeling indeed that they cannot make themselves adequately understood unless they speak in Welsh, the language of their home, their chapel, and a language entirely appropriate to their way of life.

To force them to discuss their problems and their fears in what is to them an alien tongue is to treat them as second-class citizens. To say that a knowledge of the Welsh language is not a necessary qualification for a situation that involves close contact with these people seems to me to be entirely wrongheaded and extremely obtuse. I should think that communication through a common language is the most important ingredient in the relationship that involves social workers and their clients. I know through my own experience that many elderly people in the rural areas of Wales find it difficult to communicate in English—what is to them a strange and foreign language.

I have great sympathy with those people in Wales who are unable to speak the language of heaven, but I am sure that the vast majority of them would admit that certain jobs require fluency in Welsh. I am convinced that the position of a social worker caring for the elderly and infirm in the heart of rural Wales is one such case.

I am appalled that the Commission for Racial Equality should have become involved in this matter, which is not concerned with race, colour or creed. What is concerned is the suitablility of applicants for a certain sensitive kind of work and their qualification to perform it—their ability to communicate with their clients who live in Wales.

I am here to support the hon. Member for Caernarfon, the Gwynedd county council and other county councils in Wales. I urge the Minister, in closing the debate, to advise local authorities in Wales that certain jobs within the health and social services require fluency in Welsh. I hope that the hon. Member for Caernarfon and the Gwynedd county council will be successful in their deliberations and that people will be employed who are bilingual and who will look after the interests of those who are old and infirm in our society and need care given to them by people who speak their language.

5.59 am

Dr. Roger Thomas (Carmarthen)

I congratulate my compatriot, the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley), on bringing this important topic to the notice of the House at the break of dawn this Thursday.

The Welsh language has shot into prominence as a result of the deliberations at Colwyn Bay, and as a result of what happened yesterday in the Welsh Grand Committee debate on Welsh language and training. The hon. Member for Caernarfon has expressed just indignation at what happened at Colwyn Bay. However, I have some sympathy with the two ladies who applied repeatedly for a job for which they were probably adequately qualified. They could not do work at which they would have been skilled and which would have been useful in that community. I fully agree with the early-day motion in the names of the hon. Members for Caernarfon and for Meirionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Thomas), but again there are far wider and deeper implications for the Welsh language than are implied in parts of the motion.

The Welsh language is now going through a difficult period. Parts of the recent census were encouraging, and parts were not. We are dealing with what happened in Gwynedd. Without doubt it is now the most Welsh part of Wales. I was surprised when I heard the hon. Member for Caernarfon telling us of the tremendous dominance of the Welsh-speaking population in homes for the elderly. We who come from other Welsh parts of Wales must be careful because the situation with us is not so black and white as it appears to be in that part of Wales.

I fully suported the hon. Members for Caernarfon and for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Howells) when they referred to the importance that we in Wales attach to the welfare of the elderly, particularly when they have to go into homes and hospitals. Those are acute and traumatic periods of their lives. If they are then not to be allowed to use the language with which they are most familiar, barriers are set up. In the end, they will work to the detriment of the clients.

Reference has been made to the Hughes-Parry report, which we thought at the time would safeguard the equal status of the Welsh language in the Principality. Undoubtedly the report needs urgent revision. I hope that the Minister will respond in some way to the setting up of a similar commission, because there is undoubtedly a great deal of tightening up to be done if the Hughes-Parry recommendations are to be carried forward into the conditions obtaining in Wales in the last quarter of the 20th century.

We are all aware that certain parts of Welsh Wales are desirable places where English people or non-Welshspeaking people, both young and old, wish to move and settle. Many retired people have settled there. The linguistic mix is constantly changing, but we are not doing enough to ensure that the transition is smooth. There is occasionally friction, which leads to intemperate actions, which often carry through into the headlines when the headlines should tell of the more useful and harmonious occasions.

I have received complaints from parents of young children about the difficulties that Welsh-speaking children encounter when they have to go to hospital. It is essential that paediatric departments should have at least one fluent Welsh-speaking junior doctor. I have often made representations to east Dyfed and the former Dyfed health authorities about the fact that so many nurses are not fully conversant with the Welsh language. It is only natural that children should feel uncomfortable in those circumstances, but some become apprehensive, and we must all be worried about ill children becoming apprehensive.

I was disappointed to learn recently that east Dyfed does not have a speech therapist able to rehabilitate people in their native Welsh who have suffered cerebro-vascular accidents and others.

Mr. Wigley

I thank the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Howells) and the Minister for being here. When my two handicapped boys were three and four years old, they had to see a speech therapist in Bangor. The speech therapist did not speak Welsh and the boys did not speak any English. However good the speech therapist was, she could not do the work because she could not communicate. It is not a matter of national pride or culture but the ability to do the work. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that, in circumstances such as those, to say that knowledge of Welsh is not a qualification necessary to undertake the work is nonsense?

Dr. Thomas

The hon. Gentleman can only feel ill at ease at such a personal incident in his life. It is essential that elderly people and children be able to converse in their first language. It is remarkable that, in any personal conversations, the hon. Members for Caernarfon, for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North, the Minister and I would use the medium of Welsh. In the formal atmosphere of the Chamber we are discussing this matter through the medium of what is the second language of those hon. Members present at this important debate. I do not wish to refer this morning to what happened yesterday, but part of the difficulty that led to the hot-headed action of a certain number of young people lies in the fact that the supportive actions that need to be taken to ensure that the Welsh language is able to flourish and survive are couched in far too vague and ill-defined terms.

I am extremely disappointed that the Secretary of State for Wales has decided not to set up a Welsh language education development body. It would have helped to unify the position. About 500,000 people out of a population of just under 3 million now speak the Welsh language. In cold figures, that means 20 per cent., but for those who speak the Welsh language it accounts for much more than 20 per cent. A high percentage of Welsh speakers are to be found in Gwynedd, while a low percentage of Welsh speakers is to be found in some of the valleys of Glamorgan and Gwent. Unless a body can be established to bring together all these diverse aspects, the Welsh language will suffer.

I hope that the officers and Ministers in the Welsh Office will think again about what is needed to keep alive the Welsh language. At the last census it was stated that the decline in the use of the Welsh language had to some extent been halted. The figures, particularly in the anglicised parts of Wales, start from a very low base line, but they show that there has been an increase in the number of people who are learning Welsh. However, I have found during the last 30 years that in Dyfed there has been a decline in the number of children and young people who speak Welsh. These are the ordinary Welsh speakers, those we refer to as the ordinary Welsh speakers of cefn gwlad. There has also been a decline in the standard and style of the Welsh language that they speak.

I opposed the setting up of the S4C, but I have to admit that its success has been greater than I had expected. That channel ought to be used far more directly so that those whose hold on the Welsh language has become more and more tenuous can discover once again the deep pleasure that can be gained from using the Welsh language.

Once again I congratulate the hon. Member for Caernarfon on raising this subject. It is unfortunate that so many matters relating to Wales are discussed at Westminster at inappropriate times of the night and day. But, at whatever time it is discussed, the people of Wales believe that no topic should have a greater priority, and no topic will have more influence on the future of our country. I hope that the Opposition have not put up a sort of popular front for the future of the Welsh language. The Welsh language is there for all political parties and for all shades of opinion. Yesterday, I was unhappy to hear people on both sides of the debate engaged almost in an auction, trying to say which party had done best for the Welsh language. If the language is to survive, it needs the help of all people of good will in Wales, irrespective of their political opinions.

6.15 am

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Wales (Mr. Wyn Roberts)

There is no doubt in any of our minds about the importance of this subject. I am glad that hon. Members did not go into too much detail about the specific case that was heard before the industrial tribunal at Colwyn Bay, and which resulted in the decisions announced by the tribunal chairman on 19 July, although frequent references were inevitable. Those decisions inspired the hon. Member for Caernarfon (Mr. Wigley) to seek this debate. Nevertheless, as the hon. Gentleman is aware, the decisions could be the subject of an appeal to the employment appeal tribunal within 42 days of the issue of the judgment in writing. Further proceedings are also possible after the appeal tribunal.

Neither the hon. Gentleman nor I would wish to prejudice such an appeal. The only statements that we can make about the tribunal hearing are based on media reports, for we still await the decisions in a written form. They should be available soon, and we can then study them. In this respect, Gwynedd county council, which was a party in the proceedings before the tribunal, reacted properly after the decisions were announced and offered no comment until it had the decision in writing so that it could consider its implications, and decide whether to appeal. In view of the possibility that the case may become sub judice, it would not be right for me to make any statement which might be interpreted as an attempt to influence the final outcome, and it is certainly not my intention to do so.

The hon. Gentleman also realises that although the Welsh Office has a responsibility for Welsh language matters and for social services in Wales, my right hon. Friend does not have direct responsibility for industrial tribunals or for the Commission for Racial Equality. Nevertheless, it might be helpful if I briefly outlined their remit. Industrial Tribunals are set up under section 128 of the Employment Protection (Consolidation) Act 1978. Under section 54 of the Race Relations Act 1976, an industrial tribunal has jurisdiction to hear a complaint by any person that another person has committed an unlawful act of discrimination against the complainant in the area of employment.

A hearing is normally arranged at which both parties have the opportunity to present evidence before a tribunal. The decision of the tribunal may be given orally at the end of the hearing or reserved, and in cases under the Race Relations Act, among others, the reasons for the decision must be recorded in full in a document signed by the chairman.

Employers or employees dissatisfied with an industrial tribunal decision may appeal to the employment appeal tribunal, established under the Employment Protection Act 1975, within 42 days from the date of issue of the written reasons for the industrial tribunal's decision. An appeal to the employment appeal tribunal can be only on a question of law, not of fact. Employment appeal tribunal proceedings are heard before a High Court judge and one, two or four appointed members with industrial relations experience.

An appeal can be made to the Court of Appeal from a decision of the employment appeal tribunal, but leave must be obtained. The Court of Appeal decision can be challenged in the House of Lords, again with leave. The Race Relations Act makes racial discrimination unlawful in employment, training and related matters, in education, in the provision of goods, facilities and services, and in the disposal and management of premises. The Act, as I have said, gives individuals a right of direct access to the civil courts and industrial tribunals for legal remedies for unlawful discrimination. The Act affords protection against discrimination on racial grounds to everyone in Great Britain. It would clearly be irresponsible to deprive one particular group of the legal protection that is offered to all others.

As the hon. Member for Caernarfon said, the Act defines two kinds of racial discrimination, direct and indirect. Direct discrimination arises where a person treats another person less favourably on racial grounds than he treats, or would treat, someone else. Section 3(1) defines "racial grounds" to mean any of the following: colour, race, nationality or ethnic or national origins. Indirect discrimination consists of treatment which may be described as equal in a formal sense between racial groups but discriminatory in its effect on one particular racial group. It arises where a person—the discrimination—applies to another—the victim—who is seeking some benefit from him, for example a job, a condition or requirement with which he must comply, and where the condition or requirement satisfies certain criteria.

First, it is applied, or would be applied, by thediscriminat or equally to persons of any racial group.

Secondly, it is such that the proportion of persons of the victim's racial group who can comply with it is considerably smaller than the proportion of persons not of that group who can comply.

Thirdly, it is to the detriment of the victim because he cannot comply with it.

Fourthly, it cannot be shown to be justifiable irrespective of the colour, race, nationality or ethnic origins of the person to whom it is applied.

Racial discrimination by an employer is not unlawful where being of a particular racial group is a genuine occupational qualification, a matter referred to by the hon. Gentleman. A genuine occupational qualification is not an automatic exception for general categories of jobs. In every case it will be necessary for the employer to show, if the exception is to be claimed, that the particular job in question falls within the criteria set out in section 5 of the Act. These include circumstances when the holder of the job provides persons of a particular group with personal services promoting their welfare, and these services can most effectively be provided by a person of that racial group.

The hon. Member has requested that the Government should review the working of the Race Relations Act. The working of the Act is, I am glad to tell him, kept under constant review by those Government Departments with responsibility for the various areas of the Act's operation, and by the Commission for Racial Equality, one of whose statutory duties is to keep under review the working of the Act. The Government are satisfied that there is already an acceptable mechanism for keeping the Act under review. As I have already said, I am not convinced at this stage that there is a necessity for change. Nevertheless, I note that the hon. Gentleman has presented a Bill to amend the Race Relations Act and when the Bill is printed my colleagues and I will give it careful consideration.

The central issue in this debate relates to the place of a knowledge of Welsh in appointments. We are well aware of this in Government because there are public appointments where a knowledge of Welsh could be judged to be essential. I cite as an example the chairmanship of the Welsh Fourth Channel Authority. The authority has a responsibility for Welsh language television programmes, and we could have little confidence that such a responsibility could be properly and effectively discharged unless the chief bearer of the responsibility could familiarise himself or herself thoroughly with the content of the programmes and understood the language in which they were produced and transmitted.

There are other appointments where a knowledge of Welsh might be judged to be desirable, but not essential, or where it can be an asset. The needs vary from appointment to appointment.

The hon. Member for Caernarfon referred to the reply given by my right hon. Friend to the hon. Member for Merionnydd Nant Conwy (Mr. Thomas) on 17 January this year at column 212. The hon. Gentleman asked about the relationship of the Welsh language and appointments to the Welsh Office. He was told that the guiding principle with appointments to posts in all parts of the Civil Service is that the best available candidate should be selected. This is in no way inconsistent, said my right hon. Friend, with giving appropriate weight in the selection process to ability to speak Welsh in cases where this would be an advantage in understanding the duties of the post concerned, taking account of the linguistic situation in Wales.

One specific example of this is in respect of field monument wardens where we take the ability to speak Welsh into consideration when making appointments in areas where Welsh is the predominant language and where, given the nature of the duties involved, it would be an advantage for those employed to have a knowledge of the language.

Mr. Wigley

In the posts which the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State mentioned, the chairmanship of the Welsh Fourth Channel Authority was cited as an example. Will he accept that the Welsh language is a genuine occupational qualification for such posts?

Mr. Roberts

In the most general sense, yes. In the legal sense, it might be open to debate, but I have certainly given my view. Reference has been made to the National Health Service in Wales and, of course, the place of the Welsh language in the Health Service has been the subject of guidance from the Welsh Office. It did not appear to me that the hon. Member for Ceredigion and Pembroke, North (Mr. Howells) was aware of that.

In March 1975 the Welsh Office issued circular WHSC(IS) 117 to area health authorities, family practioner committees, county councils, district councils and community health councils on the subject of the Health Service and the Welsh language. I will quote from that circular two relevant paragraphs: In a personal service concerned with the health of patients the relationship between the service and individuals seeking advice or treatment must be close and intimate. Much depends on the establishment of confidence between those administering the service and those who seek it. In this, paramount is the skill and devotion of those who provide the service. I am sure that hon. Members would not dissent from that sentiment. The circular goes on: However relationships between those seeking and those providing the services in Wales can often be assisted by recognising the importance of the Welsh language to those whose first language it is…It has a particular relevance to certain groups of patients—the young and the elderly—who in some cases may have difficulty in making their wishes known in a second language — and the mentally ill and mentally handicapped. We recognise the problem of communication and the importance of easy communication in health matters. We also recognise that linguistic cirmcumstances differ throughout Wales.

Mr. Geraint Howells

I know about the circulars that have been issued by the Welsh Office over the years, but I was urging the Minister to get in touch with local authorities again to remind them that they should give more attention to the Welsh language among the elderly, the infirm and those in care.

Mr. Roberts

I will consider further what the hon. Gentleman has said. The circular that I quoted highlights the difficulties that would be faced in any attempt to introduce a blanket provision on the Welsh language qualification in employment. All our experience of appointments in Wales leads me to believe that it would be virtually impossible to devise a policy that caters for all eventualities that could arise.

To ensure fairness, every job has to be considered on an individual basis with due regard to all its requirements including the qualifications of applicants and the needs of those to be served, all of which have to be carefully defined and weighed to ensure that justice is seen to be done. That is very important: otherwise there is always the danger of a backlash. The hon. Member for Carmarthen (Dr. Thomas) hinted at that.

Those of us who represent constituencies in the Welsh speaking parts of Wales can understand the feelings that have been expressed by the hon. Member for Caernarfon in the light of the tribunal's decision, particularly as those most directly involved are people who genuinely need the services of a local authority.

The fact that Gwynedd county council is responsible for an area which is essentially bilingual is an important factor in the delivery of services. I fully recognise that. The Gwynedd social services department therefore clearly has to plan its services with that in mind to be as effective as possible. It has to deal with a range of client groups, and individuals within those groups will prefer to speak in Welsh and the social services department has to take that into account. The need to ensure an adequate number of capable front line staff who are also fluent in Welsh is a natural consequence of the situation within the county. The social services department is concerned to ensure that the rights of individuals are fully respected in the planning and provision of services. It has to be borne in mind that social services work with the most vulnerable and disadvantaged members of society who are often suffering great personal stress and anxiety when they come into contact with staff. This means that everybody who comes into contact with the social services would expect to be able to express their concern and needs in the language in which they feel most comfortable and are able to communicate most effectively. There is no question of denying such a right to anyone.

If I single out an example where the language is an important factor in the delivery of services, I do so only because recently I visited Antur Waunfawr in the hon. Gentleman's constituency. This is a project whereby the mentally handicapped are preparing to lead more independent lives in a naturally Welsh speaking community which fully supports the venture. Clearly the support given by the county council to this project would reflect the linguistic nature of the area, and the people employed in the venture —not, incidentally, staff of the county council — reflect this as well. The hon. Gentleman will recall that when I officially opened that venture—he was present—my remarks were almost entirely in Welsh because the audience was predominantly Welsh speaking.

Of the population of Gwynedd, some 67 per cent. speak Welsh, and in overall terms this accounts for a quarter of Wales's Welsh speakers. Gwynedd has traditionally been in the forefront of developments in the use of the language, and this naturally extends to the county council's services. I understand that the social services front line staff are organised on the basis of the three main client groups of the elderly and physically handicapped, child care and mental health, and the use of the language clearly has an important part to play in delivering a service to individuals within each category.

It is, however, a matter for the county council itself to ensure that it is able to deliver the most effective service against this background. I agree with the hon. Gentleman's remarks about the county council and what it needs to do. There is, of course, scope for further education and training to ensure that there are Welsh speaking people available to do jobs where Welsh may be considered essential.

The county council has to ensure that it recruits staff who are able to provide a good service and are abreast of current developments. Clearly the employment of qualified and experienced staff and ability to speak Welsh are relevant considerations in Gwynedd. However, the statutory obligation lies with the county council, and it is not for me to make detailed observations on the way the county carries out its duties.

It will interest the House to know that the Welsh Office has assisted the department of social theory and institutions at the Univeristy college of north Wales, Bangor, to set up a social work practice centre. One post within this centre will seek to identify and meet the special needs of social work within the Welsh cultural and linguistic setting of the area. I am pleased that, under the grants available for bilingual education under section 21 of the Education (No. 2) Act 1980, we have been able to assist financially with this project. This is a clear indication that I and my right hon. Friend fully appreciate the needs of training through the medium of the Welsh language in this particular field. Naturally one understands the initial public reaction to the tribunal's decisions, but I would suggest to the hon. Member that, although we are grateful for the debate, to seek to come to any conclusions about the possible broader implications of the decision at this stage is somewhat premature.

As I have said, the Race Relations Act clearly sets out the grounds on which it is unlawful for a person to discriminate against another in the area of employment. It also lays down exceptions to those grounds for genuine occupational reasons. Hon. Members would not expect me to interpret the provisions of the Race Relations Act—that is a matter for the courts, I explained the procedures earlier. It would be totally inappropriate for a Minister to comment about the grounds of tribunal decisions, the terms of which I have not yet seen.

I can, however, assure hon. Members that if, having considered the written judgment of the tribunal, and in the light of any appeal that might be made and proceedings that may follow, there are issues which directly affect the well-being of a particular client group dependent upon a local authority for the provision of a service or if there are issues concerning the use of the Welsh language in general, I will naturally consider such matters carefully and consult my ministerial colleagues as necessary.

I hope that the originator of the debate and other hon. Members who have attended at this early hour and taken part will be satisfied with the assurance that I have just given.