§ 4. Mr. Willie W. Hamiltonasked the Secretary of State for Defence what steps he intends to take to ensure greater control of expenditure within his Department.
§ Mr. HeseltineIn recent years expenditure has been contained within the defence cash limit. In the light of various studies conducted within the Department in the past two or three years, and after close consultation with industry, we have significantly improved our central monitoring and management of cash flow. The carry forward arrangements for Government Departments announced last July by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor were also very helpful. But there is always room for improvement in the field of expenditure control; and in the 1984 "Statement on the Defence Estimates" which I published last week I announced the introduction in my Department of executive and staff responsibility budgets, as well as my determination to secure greater cost-effectiveness in defence procurement and supply.
§ Mr. HamiltonIs the right hon. Gentleman aware that, despite those measures, his Department is regarded by much outside public opinion as the most profligate and wasteful Department within the Government? Is he further aware that when that waste is exposed by newspapers the Department sends police officers to the newspaper offices, unannounced, who scrounge around in those offices trying to find out who has leaked documents which reveal the extensive and massive cover-up in the Department of its extravagance and waste?
§ Mr. HeseltineI am sure that the hon. Gentleman is fully aware that any activities conducted by the police are entirely a matter for my right hon. and learned Friend the Home Secretary. I cannot believe that it is now the Labour party's doctrine that we should encourage the leaking of confidential Government documents. [Interruption.] I add to the generality of the hon. Gentleman's attack on the Ministry of Defence the information that during a period of about seven years the Ministry had a final cash limit of about £63.6 billion, and the total overspend was about £8 million. That is remarkable cash control.
§ Mr. LeighGiven that my right hon. Friend runs a Ministry with a manpower budget of £5,215 million, employing more than 500,000 civilians and service men, what manpower savings in percentage terms is he looking for to match the 47,000 reduction in manpower since 1979 and to meet his role in curbing Government spending?
§ Mr. HeseltineI am grateful for my hon. Friend's interest in these matters. We have published figures for the reduction in manpower in the Ministry of Defence, but they include a significant element attributable to the privatisation of the royal ordnance factories. We shall constantly review what else we can add to that figure, but I should not want to publish targets in advance.
§ Mr. McNamaraIs it not a fact that the Government's concern about the damage done by leaks is more about political embarrassment than about national security? Is it not about time that the Government had a clearly defined policy and that it was not based on saving the face of the Minister, for example with regard to the leaks on the White Paper in the fortnight preceding publication?
§ Mr. HeseltineI should have thought that the hon. Gentleman would realise that there is no way in which a Government can conduct their business meaningfully if everything is leaked at the discretion of civil servants working in the Department. No Government would tolerate such a situation.
§ Mr. Willie W. HamiltonOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the grossly unsatisfactory nature of the Secretary of State's reply, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest opportunity.