HC Deb 20 February 1984 vol 54 cc560-1
39. Mr. Chapman

asked the Minister for the Civil Service if he will make a statement on redundancy policies affecting civil servants.

The Minister of State, Treasury (Mr. Barney Hayhoe)

As my hon. Friend is aware, by April 1984 the Government will have reduced the Civil Service by over 100,000 since 1979. About 10 per cent. of that reduction will be accounted for by redundancies, and it is our policy to rely on natural wastage to the greatest extent possible.

Mr. Chapman

How many of that 10 per cent. were industrial civil servants who, by the nature of their employment, were doing specialist jobs and who therefore could not be offered alternative employment within the Civil Service? In the further proposals for a reduction of 37,000 civil servants by 1988, have the Government estimated the likely number of involuntary redundancies that will be entailed?

Mr. Hayhoe

I cannot give the figures in precisely the form for which my hon. Friend has asked, but, of the 10 per cent., about 2,500 were non-industrial civil servants and about 8,000 were industrial civil servants. In the future rundown of the Civil Service we shall continue to rely on natural wastage as much as we can.

Mr. Meadowcroft

In view of the Minister's previous sympathetic reply on the question of secondment, is he prepared to consider secondment before redundancies are made for senior civil servants?

Mr. Hayhoe

I am not entirely clear what the hon. Gentleman means by secondment in connection with the retirement of senior civil servants. There is a premature retirement arrangement which is used across the Civil Service, but I am not sure which of the examples the hon. Gentleman has in mind. If he writes to me, I will try to give him a detailed reply.

Mr. Burt

Will my hon. Friend ensure that the search for reductions in the Civil Service does not become an end in itself rather than a means to an end? In the Inland Revenue, civil servants who are taken away from inspecting taxes may be bringing in more than the Government save by axeing their salaries. Will my hon. Friend advise caution? Will he advise that, where reductions are made, they are effective and not just for the sake of reducing the head-count?

Mr. Hayhoe

Yes. My hon. Friend is right in saying that we should make reductions for the sake of effectiveness. The question of civil servants in the revenue Departments—the Inland Revenue and the Customs and Excise — was referred to in our debate on the Civil Service last October. I refer my hon. Friend to the remarks that I made then.

Dr. McDonald

Is the Minister aware that the non-mobile, low-paid civil servants at GCHQ have three options — redundancy, accepting the ban on union membership, or being found work in one of the 10 Civil Service establishments within daily travelling distance of Cheltenham? Is he further aware that there are, at best, only 1,000 posts in the grade in question within daily travelling distance of Cheltenham and that there are over 1,000 civil servants in that grade in GCHQ? Do those civil servants not therefore have to choose between giving up their right to union membership and being blackmailed into redundancy?

Mr. Hayhoe

There is no question of blackmail. The hon. Lady's facts are entirely correct. She drew them from my replies to questions. She should address her suppositions and detailed questions to my right hon. and learned Friend the Foreign Secretary.