HC Deb 08 February 1984 vol 53 cc872-5
13. Mr. George Robertson

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he will give a progress report on discussions about the Gleneagles agreement between himself and the president of the Rugby Football Union.

24. Mr. John Carlisle

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment if he plans any further measures in the light of the Gleneagles agreement to seek to discourage the Rugby Football Union from its proposed tour of South Africa.

Mr. Macfarlane

I have had discussions with the Rugby Football Union and these will continue. The Government oppose the proposed tour, because of their support for the Commonwealth statement on apartheid in sport and also because of the potential implications of the tour for other sports and events.

Mr. Robertson

Since the impending tour threatens Britain's participation not just in the next Commonwealth games but possibly in the Olympic games, and in view of the fact that the Prime Minister, when in Delhi for the Commonwealth conference, expressed support not just for the spirit but for the letter of the Gleneagles agreement, may I ask when the Prime Minister will call in officials of the English Rugby Football union and tell them that this tour must be called off?

Mr. Macfarlane

I do not think the hon. Gentleman can anticipate that. Clearly, responsibility is vested in my Department. I shall be considering over the next few weeks, in the run-up to the meeting that will take place on 30 March with the Rugby Football Union representatives, exactly what the Government may do after that. I have had several meetings with representatives of the Rugby Football Union during the past four or five months. I hope that tour does not take place.

Mr. John Carlisle

Although I understand my hon. Friend's obligation under the Gleneagles agreement to discourage the Rugby Football Union from taking part in this tour, does he not now think that the objections he has made have gone far enough and that he should cease putting pressure on the union? Will he accept that persuading minsterial colleagues not to go to international rugby matches because a team of South African schoolboys came here may find favour with the Leader of the Opposition but cuts no ice on this side of the House?

Mr. Macfarlane

I do not know how my hon. Friend defines pressure, but there are serious and far-reaching implications for British sport as a whole if the tour goes ahead. Successive Prime Ministers have underlined the importance of the Government's commitment to the Commonwealth's declaration on apartheid in sport. That is why the Government and my Department have a responsibility to ensure that all governing bodies in sport are conversant with the requirements.

Mr. Canavan

Does the Minister agree that it ill becomes Tory Members of Parliament to go on trips to South Africa, which are paid for by the racist Government of that country, and then to come back and advocate action that could endanger the next Commonwealth games at Edinburgh, which are far more international and more important to the world of sport than a rugby match between South Africa and any country in the world?

Mr. Macfarlane

The first part of the hon. Gentleman's question has nothing to do with me. Hon. Members travel wherever they wish. I have faith that the members of the Commonwealth acknowledge the Government's commitment to the Commonwealth declaration on apartheid in sport. They understand that we are totally committed to that. I have faith that they will be represented in Edinburgh in 1986.

Mr. Nelson

Is my hon. Friend aware that while many of us understand his official position, we are disappointed that a Conservative Minister should involve himself in sporting matters of this kind? Is it not now abundantly clear that the Gleneagles agreement — so unwisely entered into by a previous Labour Government—is now forcing sport generally, and rugby in particular, to pay a heavy price? Can my hon. Friend name a single instance where a sporting, or any other boycott, has had any influence on subsequent policies?

Mr. Macfarlane

On the latter point, I would not want to become engaged in a historical appreciation of sanctions or boycotts. I am sure my hon. Friends will understand that. However, I must remind my hon. Friend that as recently as last November, in New Delhi, the Prime Minister reaffirmed the Government's commitment to the Gleneagles agreement. That was on the agenda of that conference, and there was no change in the current commitment.

Mr. Lofthouse

Do the Government have any plans —[Interruption.]—to assist the advance of rugby league football, whose administrators would, I believe, never think of touring South Africa?

Mr. Macfarlane

I am sorry, but I did not hear the first part of the hon. Gentleman's question.

Mr. Lofthouse

Has the Minister any plans to encourage and assist the advancement of rugby league football, whose administrators would, I am sure, never think of touring South Africa?

Mr. Macfarlane

The rugby league authorities are infinitely better placed than I to encourage an expansion of that game.

Mr. Latham

Is my hon. Friend aware that those of us who have supported the Gleneagles agreement—and, indeed, remember the occasion when Mr. Vorster tried to pick the English cricket team by excluding Basil D'Oliveira — fear that the whole policy is facing collapse when we see teams of black West Indian cricketers touring South Africa?

Mr. Macfarlane

I understand my hon. Friend's concern, but I ask him to reflect on the theory—often expressed by many people concerned with multiracial sport—that one cannot have normal sporting relations in an abnormal society.

Dr. Cunningham

Is the Minister aware that the Opposition applaud and welcome his courage and consistency on this matter? Is it not clear that, in spite of his considerable efforts, the Rugby Football Union is planning to go ahead with this tour? Given his confirmation that only very recently the Prime Minister reaffirmed this country's pledge on this issue, embodied in the Gleneagles agreement, should not the Prime Minister now intervene personally to prevent this disastrous tour? Will the Minister assure the House that if the tour proceeds, no more public financial support will be given to the Rugby Football Union?

Mr. Macfarlane

The responsibility for dealing with the governing bodies in this country rests with myself and within my Department. It is quite clear that the role of the Rugby Football Union over the next few weeks is absolutely critical, if it believes in encouraging and enhancing rugby football throughout the 100 or so countries that now play the game. All 56 members of the Rugby Football Union must now closely consider the potential damage.

I am not in the business of imposing sanctions, especially if one hurts those who are looking for grass root money support for coaching and encouragement well away from the governing body. However, I take note of the hon. Gentleman's point.