§ Mr. Edward Leigh (Gainsborough and Horncastle) (by private notice)asked the Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs, if he is now prepared to talk to UNITA to secure the release of 16 British hostages held in Angola.
§ The Minister of State, Foreign and Commonwealth Office (Mr. Malcolm Rifkind)Our interest in this matter is a humanitarian one. We wish to see the British hostages released as quickly as possible. Consistent with our normal position on hostage-taking, we are quite happy to speak to anyone if that is what is required to secure their release, and we are already in touch.
§ Mr. LeighDid my hon. Friend attempt to establish contact with UNITA to secure the release of the hostages, who include my constituent Mr. Dennis Clawson, as soon as they were kidnapped? Did he pass on UNITA's warning some months ago that the engineers were at risk? Was he misquoted as saying that UNITA is nothing in southern Africa, which may have prompted the kidnapping? Will he make it clear that the Government support the withdrawal of all foreign troops from Angola, including the Cubans and the East Germans?
§ Mr. RifkindOn my hon. Friend's first question, we made initial representations through the Red Cross to UNITA, which said that it would not tell the United Kingdom the conditions for the release of the British hostages until after the hostages had reached its base camp in southern Angola, which they did in the past couple of days.
My hon. Friend referred to certain press reports about what I was purported to have said in South Africa. The reports that I have read in the press were inaccurate. At no time did I make any reference to UNITA in the terms that were expressed.
On the general position, we consider the present civil war between UNITA and the Angola Government to be the internal affair of Angola. Naturally, the United Kingdom hopes that peace will come to that country as soon as possible. In the meantime, it is for the people of Angola to decide their own future. We believe that the withdrawal of all foreign troops from Angola will be helpful in that connection.
§ Mr. Tom Clarke (Monklands, West)On behalf of my constituent, Thomas Murphy, and his family, I thank the Minister for the patience that he has shown. Is the Minister aware that people, not least hon. Members, are becoming impatient with the disgraceful activities of UNITA? Should it not be pointed out to UNITA that its activities are in no way regarded by the House as pro-Western?
Will the hon. Gentleman bear in mind that, while he needs to use language that is delicate and diplomatic in such difficult circumstances, it should be said that the South African Government could be more helpful and that their Pontius Pilate attitude is something that we are bound to deplore?
Do not the actions of UNITA represent not coercion but outright terrorism? That should not be dressed up in any other way.
§ Mr. RifkindAny organisation or individual that takes innocent civilians as hostages, for whatever purpose, 810 deserves to be rebuked by both sides of the House and by all concerned with hostage-taking wherever that takes place around the world.
On the hon. Gentleman's other comments, whatever views he may have about South Africa, I hope that he will appreciate that UNITA would undoubtedly continue to exist irrespective of South African policy. What we are concerned with is the simple question of the release of British hostages, and we hope that the indications that we have from UNITA that it is prepared to release the British hostages in the near future will be fulfilled.
§ Mr. Colin Shepherd (Hereford)Is my hon. Friend aware that no fewer than three of these hostages are my constituents? They are among the large number of people from Hereford who are legitimately and properly employed in various parts of the world in areas in which, although they may be somewhat contentious, they can reasonably expect the full protection of Her Britannic Majesty's Government, as set out on the inside of their passports. Is my hon. Friend aware that the confidence of these people's families will be very much affected by the speed, resolution and determination with which he and the Government resolve this problem?
§ Mr. RifkindI have listened with great care and attention to what my hon. Friend has said. He will, I am sure, accept that the Government are as concerned as he is to secure the early release of these British hostages. I am sure that the whole House will agree, however, that when dealing with an organisation which has taken innocent civilians and is using them as hostages, great care must be taken in any contacts that might take place with regard to the consequences for the general principle of hostage-taking in international relations.
§ Mr. Geraint Howells (Ceredigion and Pembroke, North)I am grateful to the Minister for being so cooperative and helpful during the last few days. As he is well aware, one of my constituents, Mr. Hywel Lloyd, is involved. If negotiations go well, when does the Minister believe that the hostages will be released?
§ Mr. RifkindIt is too early to give a specific answer to the hon. Gentleman's question. As I said in my initial reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Gainsborough and Horncastle (Mr. Leigh), we are already in contact with UNITA. We obviously are pressing for as speedy a resolution of the problem as possible and as soon as we have any further specific information to convey to those who have a constituency interest in these matters, we will do so.
§ Mr. Kenneth Carlisle (Lincoln)Will my hon. Friend accept that his decision to talk with UNITA recognises the reality of their power over the hostages? Will he keep the families concerned in this country fully informed? As he may know, one of them is in my constituency.
§ Mr. RifkindI am very happy to assure my hon. Friend that we shall do our best to keep the families concerned fully informed of any developments that take place with regard to their relatives held by UNITA in Angola.
§ Mr. Allan Rogers (Rhondda)Will the Minister take up with the proprietors in Fleet street the way in which they are issuing news? As I understand it, they were contacted by UNITA and invited to a press conference to which the hostages were taken. The story as disclosed was quite distressing to one of my constituents whose husband 811 is a hostage. If, in the future, there happened to be bad news, rather than good news as there was this weekend, even greater distress might be caused. Would the Minister please try to prevail on the media at least to keep him informed so that he can get in touch with the families, even if it is only minutes before there are any disclosures?
§ Mr. RifkindI know that the public as a whole and certainly the families were pleased to hear that the hostages appeared to be in good physical condition after the ordeal they had had to suffer in their trek through Angola. No doubt those who are responsible for newspapers will note the hon. Gentleman's comments.
§ Mr. Peter Bottomley (Eltham)Does my hon. Friend accept that it would be very curious if UNITA destroyed any good will that might exist for it by not releasing people who are far more innocent than those released by the Government in Angola? Will he maintain his present correct attitude of trying, on humanitarian grounds, to get the British nationals released while not giving ground for possible future attacks on British civilians by making it appear that the British Government can be twisted in this way?
§ Mr. RifkindI have said that, in accordance with our normal custom, we are perfectly willing to speak to those who for the time being have physical control of innocent British civilians. It is obviously right and proper, from a humanitarian point of view, to take that course of action. I am sure that the whole House would agree, whatever views hon. Members may have about UNITA, that any organisation that seeks to use innocent civilians for this purpose deserves to be condemned. That is true whether it is UNITA or any other organisation in any part of the world.
§ Mr. Andrew Faulds (Warley, East)Would the Minister care to reconsider his statement that UNITA can continue its operations without the logistic and armaments support provided by South Africa? If that is really his view, it is a very surprising one to come out of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office.
§ Mr. RifkindThere is a widespread view in many countries and among many Governments that the level of support for UNITA may influence and determine its operation. The organisation itself has shown that it has some genuine support within Angola. It is impossible for any outsider to calculate the extent of that support. The consensus throughout the international community is that UNITA has some support in Angola, and it is to that that I have drawn attention.
§ Mr. John Wilkinson (Ruislip, Northwood)When my hon. Friend says that the future of Angola is for the people of Angola to determine, is he explicitly committing his office to the principle of self-determination for Angola? If that is so, surely the continued presence of Cuban forces in Angola is the sole obstacle to that process of self-determination.
§ Mr. RifkindI have emphasised the fact that a civil war has been going on for a number of years within 812 Angola. As with other civil wars in other parts of the world, it is right and proper for the citizens of Angola to determine their own future. The presence of foreign troops in Angola does not assist the process of national reconciliation within that country. We believe that the departure of foreign troops from Angola would be beneficial to the people of Angola as a whole.
§ Mr. Michael Meadowcroft (Leeds, West)Although one accepts that the whole point of the exercise is to secure the release of the hostages, is it not a condemnation of the Government's support for the South African regime that it appears now to have no influence upon the UNITA regime? Is the hon. Gentleman saying that there is no way of securing the release of the hostages without envisaging the break-up of Angola? Is that the import of what he is telling the House?
§ Mr. RifkindIt is clear that the hon. Gentleman has not been listening to what I have been saying. That is apparent from the rather confused nature of his question. I have not expressed any view on whether South Africa does or does not have any influence over UNITA. I have said that there have been reports on the circumstances in which UNITA would be prepared to release the British hostages. If these reports are confirmed, we have said that we shall be willing to speak to UNITA in the hope that this will secure the early release of the hostages. Our concern is a humanitarian one, and we are continuing to approach the issue on that basis.
§ Mr. George Robertson (Hamilton)Is the Minister aware that we share the humanitarian concern for the fate of the 16 British hostages and that we want to see them freed as soon as possible? Is he further aware that there will be genuine concern throughout the House if direct dealings with Dr. Savimbi and UNITA were to encourage further hostage-taking, blackmail and other acts of terrorism? Is he conscious of the effect that direct dealings with UNITA may have on the Luanda accord between Angola and South Africa and hence on the chances of getting rid of South African troops from Angola?
Finally, will the Minister bear in mind the undesirability of doing anything to promote the interests of the allies of South Africa—of which clearly UNITA is one—at a time of continuing repression within that country?
§ Mr. RifkindI stress that our attitude towards this problem is based on the principles that have been established over the years following previous instances of hostage taking. We are prepared to speak to those who have physical control over British citizens, but we are not prepared to contemplate our foreign policy being determined on that basis.
The agreement that has been reached between South Africa and Angola is seen clearly to be in the interests of both countries. It is unlikely that anything affecting the British hostages will have an effect for good or ill on the accord.