POWERS OF ENTRY OF BRITISH SEA-FISHERY OFFICERS IN RELATION TO PREMISES ON LAND (Hansard, 7 March 1983)

§ The Solicitor-General for Scotland (Mr. Peter Fraser)
I beg to move amendment No. 5, in page 4, line 4, at end insert 'or a justice of the peace'. The amendment would allow a British sea fishery officer in Scotland to apply to a justice of the peace for a warrant to enter and search premises for documents relating to the commission of an offence under the terms of the Bill. Although no problem is anticipated in Scotland, in the interests of allowing such an officer to carry out his duties speedily this provision will be necessary because of the large distances that he may have to travel to reach a sheriff.
The omission of a reference to justices of the peace in the Bill as drafted was essentially an oversight, and I hope that hon. Members will agree to the amendment.

§ Mr. Buchan
I should like to be helpful, but I do not agree with the amendment and I require further explanation before it is accepted.
I am not conversant with the nature of justices of the peace in England and Wales. Therefore, I make no comment on clause 3(1)(a). It may be that a justice of the peace appointed by the Lord Chancellor is fully qualified, but we are talking about getting permission to search 679 premises. Every Scottish Member present will know about justices of the peace in Scotland. They are sometimes appointed because they served as magistrates in the old elected councillor days, sometimes because they have been councillors, and sometimes merely because of the need to have someone in the community to sign the odd document such as a passport photograph. With respect, that is not the qualification for someone giving authority to search premises, and I am astonished that the Solicitor-General for Scotland, of all people, should have come forward with such a proposal.
I assume that the hon. and learned Gentleman is particularly concerned about the islands—though perhaps not—but in Scotland we have the appointment of honorary sheriffs, who have a legal function and are lawyers. It would be extraordinary if an ordinary justice of the peace were given this power.
My wife is a justice of the peace, but she was trained to act only in a local minor court dealing with parking offences. Other than that, she tends to sign documents such as passport applications. She is a good deal better than many, but she would not consider herself qualified to empower the law to search premises.
We are dealing with a fairly important matter, and I plead with the Government to leave this amendment out. Let the hon. and learned Gentleman have another look at it, and if he thinks that he has it right, let him introduce it in the other place. I should be surprised if their Lordships, especially those with knowledge of the Scottish scene, allowed such an amendment to go through.
I have taken advice on this matter and have had a shocked response from both counsel and solicitors. They expressed the same kind of astonishment as I have. I hope that any Scottish civil servants in the Box will share that surprise. I trust that the amendment will be withdrawn.

§ Mr. McQuarrie
I listened with considerable interest to the remarks of the hon. Member for Renfrewshire, West (Mr. Buchan). I am inclined to favour some of his comments. In my days in local government, I had experience of justices of the peace and their appointment. I mean no disrespect when I say that there are trade unionists and public servants in NALGO and similar bodies who are justices of the peace but who have no experience of search powers.
I hesitate to allow the phrase or a justice of the peace to be inserted in the Bill without more positive proof that justices of the peace who might be farmers—[Interruption.] It may be sensible, as the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland says from a sedentary position. It does not eliminate the fact that the farmer has no legal experience.

§ Mr. Barry Henderson (Fife, East)
Will my hon. Friend not accept that the clause states that there has to be reasonable ground for suspecting that an offence under section 1 of this Act has been committed". It is only in these circumstances that the justice of the peace in Scotland or the sheriff, if he is handy, would be invited to issue such a permission. Does not my hon. Friend feel that this has narrowed the matter sufficiently to make it acceptable in the special circumstances where the sheriff court is a long distance away.

§ Mr. McQuarrie
I am grateful to my hon. Friend. The clause relates to the searching of a fishing boat. A farmer has no experience of searching a fishing boat. I believe that my hon. and learned Friend should re-examine the wording.

§ The Solicitor-General for Scotland
There is nothing special about what is proposed. Both the hon. Member for Renfrewshire, West (Mr. Buchan) and my hon. Friend the Member for Aberdeenshire, East (Mr. McQuarrie) have served on Standing Committees on Bills relating to Scotland where such powers to grant warrants have been given to justices of the peace in Scotland. This is nothing new or novel in relation to Scotland. It is a matter of oversight that the proposed amendment was not included in the Bill originally.
It does a grave injustice to justices of the peace who are much the same type of person on each side of the border to say that they are not qualified to look into the issue we are discussing. There is no great detailed legal decision involved. They have to determine whether, on the information given to them by the fisheries officer, there are reasonable grounds for suspecting that an offence has been committed under section 1 of the Act. It is a simple safeguard. It is nothing novel in the law of Scotland.
I was surprised to hear what the hon. Member for Renfrewshire, West had to say about the advice that he had been given. Far from describing what I have had to say as astonishing, I cannot believe that the advice was anything other than to the effect that what is proposed happens regularly, as under the Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982.

§ Mr. Buchan
We are dealing here with fines totalling up to £50,000 and sequestration of gear. On the one hand, we are dealing with major matters and, on the other hand, we are dealing with the search for criminality leading to such fines. These are not minor matters. Perhaps the Solicitor-General for Scotland can give me examples, but none of the people whom I have consulted in Scotland knew of any comparison. I do not know the nature of justices of the peace in England, but I cannot think of any justices of the peace who would agree with the Solicitor-General for Scotland that they are qualified for this task.

§ The Solicitor-General for Scotland
As I have already said, justices of the peace in England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland are much the same creatures. If the hon. Gentleman is wearing his United Kingdom hat and if he is complaining about the role of justices of the peace in this connection, he should complain about them granting warrants at all. I do not understand why he takes this attitude. With respect, I am surprised that he sees this as a point of any significance in Scotland. I have already given the hon. Gentleman numerous instances where justices of the peace grant warrants. They occur repeatedly under the Civic Government (Scotland) Act which was passed by this House, whereby warrants are granted for searches of premises undertaken by the police. I cannot go on repeating that. It is a fact. It is done regularly. I do not understand why the hon. Gentleman thinks that this is a matter of any substance.
If the Bill is to proceed and its principal aim is to be observed, it requires proper enforcement of its provisions. If there is to be proper enforcement, it is important that 681 searches can be undertaken speedily. It is therefore wholly appropriate that a justice of the peace in Scotland should be the person to whom the fisheries officer can go for a warrant.

§ Mr. Buchan
rose—

§ Mr. McQuarrie
I merely wished to remind my hon. and learned Friend, in spite of what I said about justices of the peace, that when we were debating the Fisheries Bill and the matter of search, we authorised justices of the peace to sign warrants. In that case, the fines were up to £50,000. That came back to my mind. So that is one example where justices of the peace were authorised to sign search warrants.

§ Mr. Buchan
Never trust a Tory as an ally!
I remain totally unconvinced. The Solicitor-General for Scotland asks whether I speak with a United Kingdom hat. I do not. I am speaking specifically on the Scottish front, because I know it better. I cannot speak about this matter south of the border.
I adhere to what I said because of the serious nature of the matter, involving, as it does international questions about crews. It is a matter that requires much more care. If we do nothing, I have a hunch that their Lordships will do it, and for once I would agree with them. I shall not vote against the matter because I do not carry enough votes tonight. I deplore the matter, as I am sure do others.