HC Deb 27 October 1982 vol 29 cc1027-8
8. Mr. Dubs

asked the Secretary of State for Transport what is the estimated passenger cost per mile of travel on (a) London Transport tubes, (b) London Transport buses and (c) British Rail commuter services.

The Under-Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. Reginald Eyre)

There are no strictly comparable figures available, but the nearest I can give is for a typical journey length at current single fares—16p, 16p and lop, respectively, on London Transport tubes, buses and British Rail commuter services.

Mr. Dubs

Will the Minister confirm that the cost per passenger mile on London Transport tubes and buses is among the highest, if not the highest, of any major city in the world? Why do Londoners, of all people in the world, have to bear such a heavy burden for their public transport?

Mr. Eyre

London fares are undoubtedly high, but the blame must be placed on the GLC, which interfered in the fixing of fares and in other ways and made a right mess of it. Instead of imposing further excessive increases on the ratepayers, the GLC should concentrate on increasing efficiency. If London Transport costs had risen no more than those of PTEs in other parts of the country, savings of £80 million could have been made this year and put towards reducing fares.

Mr. Fry

Will my hon. Friend confirm—or deny—that any increase in commuter fares, as projected by British Rail, will be subject to any extra injection of funds by the Government? There have been reports that the Department of Transport has given British Rail a considerable amount of money to keep rail prices down.

Mr. Eyre

There is no foundation for that story. The public service obligation for next year has not yet been determined.

Mr. Bidwell

Does the hon. Gentleman agree that that is not all due to the wickedness of the GLC, whether under Tory or Labour control? The Select Committee recently pointed out in its revolutionary proposals for London Transport that it needs an enormous amount of capital expenditure. That can be provided for London only by the State.

Mr. Eyre

A reasonable and proper measure of subsidy is needed, but after that it is essentially a matter of the efficient use of resources to get the best possible value for money. Considerable improvements could be made in various areas of London Transport's operations.

Mr. Wilkinson

Does my hon. Friend agree that that is disadvantageous for areas such as my constituency in north-west London, where there are no British Rail stations and commuters have to use the tube? In his discussions with the GLC and London Transport, will my hon. Friend ensure a fairer zoning policy, because it is now weighted against my part of north-west London?

Mr. Eyre

My hon. Friend is right to point to the unfairness of the zoning system as it affects fares. Costs per mile of maintaining the underground are higher than those of British Rail's surface railway. The GLC and London Transport give the bulk of subsidy available to the buses. The underground traveller cross subsidises the buses. The GLC has the balance of the subsidy wrong.

Mr. Booth

What proportion of the GLC rates increase to which the Minister referred was the result of the clawback which was introduced by the Secretary of State for the Environment, what proportion came from the deficit on the transport budget inherited from the Tory-controlled GLC, and what proportion was attributable 10 the cheap fares policy? If the Minister does not have the figures, will he confirm that the proportion attributable to the cheap fares policy was much smaller than the other two factors taken together?

Mr. Eyre

I do not have the precise figures for which the right hon. Gentleman asked. He will understand that it is not possible to answer that question in detail without notice. The clawback was connected with the GLC's total expenditure and affected matters other than transport.

I emphasise that the increase in revenue subsidy that is proposed by the GLC rises from £89 million approved last year to £240 million this year. The GLC must be aware that that is completely unrealistic in today's circumstances.