HC Deb 26 October 1982 vol 29 cc916-24




Lords amendment: No. 10, in page 14, line 26, leave out from "company" to "on" in line 28 and insert with a present or prospective interest in Government testing station assets Read a Second time.

Mr. Roger Stott (Westhoughton)

I beg to move amendment (a) to the Lords amendment, after 'insert"', insert 'which is an independent and non-profit making body under the control of Lloyd's Register of S hipping'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this it will be convenient to take amendment (b) to Lords amendment No. 10 and Lords amendments Nos. 11, 12, 15 and 16.

Mr. Stott

The principal issue at stake is the privatisation of heavy goods vehicle testing stations. It will come as no surprise to the Minister that I and my right hon. and hon. Friends and others believe that this is the most ridiculous proposal ever to emanate from the Department of Transport. It has attracted universal hostility—from the industry, the unions, the inspectors and almost everyone concerned with the testing of heavy goods vehicles. The all-party Select Committee twice produced a report that emphatically condemned the Government for introducing these ludicrous proposals. All sides have been ranged against the Government.

In their amendment, their Lordships have specified that the Secretary of State could make loans under the Bill to a company with a present or prospective interest in Government testing stations. The Minister will know that we had a long argument about the matter in Committee. Neither my right hon . and hon. Friends nor I were satisfied that the Secretary of State should make loans to private companies. We were not satisfied that there would be any checking of the rate of interest on the money that the Government loaned. The Minister was seized of that point Their Lordships have now included provision for prospective buyers. That changes the Bill considerably.

I am mindful of what the Government are doing with regard to British Airways. They are fattening up the cow in preparation for its being sold off to private enterprise. They are writing off BA's debts and millions of pounds of taxpayers' money are going in that venture.

The Opposition are worried about public money being invested, given away or lent by the Secretary of State to private companies that want to take over the administration of heavy goods vehicle testing stations. We all know that testing stations have a good reputation as independent testing authorities. The House would be foolish to pass legislation that undermines the independence of those stations and their officials and inspectors.

5.15 pm

Our amendment would clarify the issue. We utterly oppose the proposal to sell off the testing stations. If, however, they must be sold off, we want those 91 stations to be taken over by one company, not sold off piecemeal to several companies. The one company that would maintain their currently high standard is Lloyd's Register of Shipping. It is an independent non-profit making organisation that commands the respect of both sides of the House with regard to its ability to conduct its affairs properly and truly independently.

I was interested to read the proceedings in another place for 5 July. I am advised that I may quote from those proceedings if I quote from a Minister's speech. Lord Bellwin said: Surely what we need is a legal structure which leaves us and future Governments with the freedom to take sensible decisions in the light of facts, with appropriate safeguards to ensure that these decisions will not run contrary to our central—and I say it yet again—aim of maintaining safety standards and providing the best possible service to the road transport industry. I believe that we have these safeguards in the Bill, as I have already explained. We accept that the impartiality of testing is vital and our choice of Lloyd's Register Vehicle Testing Authority to take over the testing system is proof of that." —[Official Report, House of Lords, 5 July 1982; Vol. 432, c. 607.] Have the Government made that choice? Has the deal been done? Is Lloyd's Register of Shipping to be the new testing authority for heavy goods vehicles? If so, the Minister can have no objection to our amendment. Her noble Friend has already said our choice of Lloyd's Register Vehicle Testing Authority to take over the testing system is proof' of the fact that the Government wish to ensure that the testing stations remain independent and perform at their current highly independent level.

I need detain the House no longer. I have deployed my arguments. I hope that the hon. Lady will take what I have said on board. I shall be amazed if she refuses to accept the amendment as her noble Friend has let the cat out of the bag.

Mrs. Chalker

I shall deal first with the comments of the hon. Member for Westhoughton (Mr. Stott) on his amendments before I turn to the Government amendments grouped with them. I fully understand that nothing that I say at the Dispatch Box or anywhere else will persuade the hon. Gentleman of the wisdom of allowing heavy goods vehicle testing and some PSV testing to be undertaken by a non-profit-making authority such as the Lloyd's Register Vehicle Testing Authority—the name that my noble Friend Lord Bellwin gave to the body with which, as the Government have quite often said, they are having discussions about taking over the heavy goods vehicle testing and the PSV testing. However, I hope that when I have finished my remarks, he may agree that the safeguards that the Lords have put into the Bill have done all that needs to be done to reassure him.

First, I suspect that the hon. Gentleman's amendments may be inspired by a misunderstanding of the use to which the power to make loans under clause 12 may be put. Clause 12 allows the Secretary of State to lend money only to a company in which he holds a controlling interest. It could not be used to lend to a private sector company such as Lloyd's or any company controlled by it. That is why the hon. Gentleman's amendments do not do what he has sought to persuade the House that they might do. I understand, however, that the Opposition wanted to raise again the idea of restricting the Secretary of State's choice over the type of organisation to which testing could be transferred. The hon. Gentleman began his remarks by referring to a single company taking over all the 91 testing stations currently looked after by the Department of Transport. Therefore, I shall deal first with that point, before I deal with the question of restricting the Secretary of State's choice.

I hope that I can show hon. Members that their amendments are unnecessary. Under clause 12(2) the power to make loans can be exercised only in relation to a company in which the Secretary of State for Transport has a controlling interest. There is therefore no question of making loans—the hon. Gentleman referred to giving public money—to a private sector company of any sort, whether it be a company controlled by Lloyd's or an ordinary commercial company. The powers are restricted to the Secretary of State's own interim company, if such a company needs to be set up in this case. It is, of course, our intention—I emphasise what Lord Bellwin said—if it can be agreed, to transfer the testing system directly to the Lloyd's Register Vehicle Testing Authority without the need to use the interim stage of a wholly owned company. It is highly unlikely that the provisions in the clause will ever be used. However, the Government cannot yet announce final agreement with Lloyd's and we feel that it is prudent to retain these powers in the Bill as a safeguard in case anything should go wrong in the current discussions. The hon. Gentleman's amendments, however, would not achieve what he intended to achieve. Indeed, they would introduce a contradiction into the clause.

Mr. Sydney Bidwell (Ealing, Southall)

I speak as a member of the Select Committee—indeed, the hon. Lady is surrounded by members of that Committee—responsible for the report which expressed dismay at the Government's intention and mentioned the possibility that Lloyd's Register of Shipping should take over and become the future authority. I think that the House would be very reluctant not to support the Opposition amendment in the present situation, unless the hon. Lady can be much more forthcoming to the House today. Are there impediments? What difficulties are arising? If the Government are as efficient as the hon. Lady proclaims, they must have had many preliminary discussions with Lloyd's. Can the hon. Lady be more forthcoming? Many people are very anxious about the possibility of reductions in the standards of the testing system.

Mrs. Chalker

Whenever we have debated this part of the Bill I have said that I have no interest whatsoever in reducing standards and I would not be putting forward these provisions if I thought that they would lead to a reduction in the standards of testing. That is why I was particularly glad when Lloyd's Register agreed to consider the possibility of taking over—under the separate heading of Lloyd's Register Vehicle Testing Authority—all 91 stations. That has been the concern of the Opposition at all times. I understand the reservations of right hon. and hon. Members of the Select Committee, but in dealing with the amendment of the hon. Member for Westhoughton I was simply seeking to explain that clause 12 allows the Secretary of State to lend money only to a company in which he holds a controlling interest. Therefore, it cannot go to a Lloyd's company or a separate company derived from Lloyd's. It can go only to an interim company, if such a company needed to be set up during the transfer of the work from the Government to the Lloyd's Register Vehicle Testing Authority.

Mr. Fry

My hon. Friend refers to an interim company. As she is probably aware, some of the 91 testing stations are far from profitable. It would therefore be possible to discuss with Lloyd's Register or perhaps some similar body the possibility of taking over a great number of the testing stations, leaving my hon. Friend with the difficult task of dealing with the loss-makers. Does my hon. Friend foresee that this provision would enable a company in which the Secretary of State had a controlling interest perhaps to administer those stations that could not be taken over by a body such as Lloyd's Register rather than allowing them to be sold off to purely commercial concerns? That is the main fear not only of the Opposition but of the Select Committee.

Mrs. Chalker

I sympathise very much with what has been said by my hon. Friend the Member for Wellingborough (Mr. Fry). I can assure him that in all the discussions that have taken place we have been discussing the 91 vehicle testing stations as a whole. We have not discussed them piecemeal. When we discussed the Bill in Committee earlier in the year we discussed what the situation would be if a prospective non-profit-making tester came along who did not want some of the far-flung stations. At that time I said that if it was not possible to reach agreement the Government could perhaps take on some of the far-flung stations. I remember that at that point in our discussion we had a geographical tour round the country. It is true that it would be possible for the Government, through the interim company, to take on the less attractive stations. However, the matter has always been seen as one that should be dealt with as a whole, if at all possible. I can therefore assure the hon. Member for Ealing, Southall (Mr. Bidwell) and the House that in all the discussion that has taken place on the transfer of heavy goods vehicle and PSV testing we have discussed the matter as a whole rather than any particular part of it. I hope that that reassures my hon. Friend.

We believe that the best course would be the transfer to Lloyd's Register. That proposal would maintain the high safety standards and the impartiality to which all parts of the House attach equally great importance. We also believe that it would allow scope for a better service to be provided to the heavy goods vehicle industry. We fully expect our negotiations with Lloyd's Register to bear fruit. A testing system operated by Lloyd's Register Vehicle Testing Authority would undoubtedly be successful and of benefit to the industry. However, the transfer to Lloyd's Register is not the only option for the future of the system. We have, as the hon. Gentleman asked, been involved in detailed discussions as to how we want to do this, and that is why I am not in a position to tell the House tonight that we have finally and successfully concluded those discussions.

There is more preparation work to be done, but I firmly believe that the wcrk that has been done will, and can, lead to a testing system that will be carried out impartially, thoroughly, consistently and to the proper standards. That does not mean that there is only one way to organise the system, and we must explore all the possibilities. I would have been dismayed, and would have felt that we had been shortsighted, if we had bound ourselves to one option because there will be other possibilities in time; these testing principles are not a static matter. We have to have an opportunity in future years for flexibility, development, growth and change.

5.30 pm

I hope to be able to come to the House soon with news, but hon. Members will appreciate that I cannot say anything more about the Lloyd's Register Vehicle Testing Authority than I have said today. The House will have a chance to approve the proposals and authorise that body, as provided in clause 8.

I hope that I have explained to the hon. Gentleman why his amendments to Lords amendment No. 10 are not acceptable. The amendments in the name of the Government, Nos. 10, 11, 12, 15 and 16, while they appear substantial, are extremely limited and technical in their effect. They alter the definition of certain phrases in clause 12 and later references to them in clause 14 to make the definitions more apt and more accurate. The Lords amendments standing in the name of the Government do not alter the substance or the effect of the clauses. I hope that when we come to vote on them the House will see fit to agree with the Lords amendments and to reject the Opposition amendment.

Mr. Stott

With leave of the House, may I say that I have listened carefully to the Minister, but she has not satisfied me about the provisions in the Bill. The hon. Lady said that the provisions in clause 12 are there in case they may be needed, but that the Government did not envisage using them. However, as I have said on a number of occasions, we are not debating something that we might not use, but something that is in black and white before us in the Bill, and that is part of a legislative provision. Those provisions will bind the Secretary of State.

The hon. Lady said that the Lords amendments are complementary to making it possible for the Secretary of State to set up his interim company with Government money. For a start the word "interim" fills me with suspicion because it means that the company will be there for only a short time, until it is handed over lock, stock and barrel to the operator who is now operating with the Government. Therefore, what the hon. Lady has said has not allayed our suspicions, doubts and fears about the matter.

The hon. Lady tells us that the negotiations that she is having with Lloyd's have not yet reached a conclusion. However, the Bill went into Committee in May of this year. That was a long time ago. I do not know how long these negotiations will continue, but there must come a time when there is to be some resolution of the matter. The Bill should not leave the House without our making a firm judgment on where those 91 testing stations should go. They should remain in the Department of Transport. If they are not to do so, they should go to the Lloyd's Register of Shipping because that is the only body we have any faith or trust in to carry out tests on an independent basis and maintain them at the high level of standards that we now enjoy.

Question put, That the amendment to the Lords amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 230, Noes 274.

Division No. 329] [5.35 pm
Abse, Leo Ellis, Tom (Wrexham)
Adams, Allen English, Michael
Allaun, Frank Ennals, Rt Hon David
Alton, David Evans, loan (Aberdare)
Anderson, Donald Evans, John (Newton)
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Ewing, Harry
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack Fitch, Alan
Ashton, Joe Foot, Rt Hon Michael
Atkinson, N.(H'gey,) Ford, Ben
Bagier, Gordon A.T. Forrester, John
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Foulkes, George
Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (H'wd) Fraser, J. (Lamb'th, N'w'd)
Beith, A. J. Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald
Benn, Rt Hon Tony Freud, Clement
Bennett, Andrew(St'kp't N) Garrett, John (Norwich S)
Bidwell, Sydney Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)
Booth, Rt Hon Albert George, Bruce
Bottomley, Rt Hon A.(M'b'ro) Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Bradley, Tom Golding, John
Bray, Dr Jeremy Gourley, Harry
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Graham, Ted
Brown, R. C. (N'castle W) Grant, John (Islington C)
Brown, Ronald W. (H'ckn'y S) Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Brown, Ron (E'burgh, Leith) Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife)
Buchan, Norman Hardy, Peter
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. Harrison, Rt Hon Walter
Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n & P) Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith
Campbell, Ian Healey, Rt Hon Denis
Campbell-Savours, Dale Heffer, Eric S.
Canavan, Dennis Hogg, N. (E Dunb't'nshire)
Cant, R. B. Holland, S. (L'b'th, Vauxh'll)
Carmichael, Neil Home Robertson, John
Carter-Jones, Lewis Homewood, William
Clark, Dr David (S Shields) Hooley, Frank
Clarke,Thomas(C'b'dge, A'rie) Howell, Rt Hon D. (G'ldf'd)
Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) Howells, Geraint
Cohen, Stanley Hoyle, Douglas
Coleman, Donald Huckfield, Les
Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. Hughes, Mark (Durham)
Conlan, Bernard Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N)
Cook, Robin F. Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Cowans, Harry Janner, Hon Greville
Craigen, J. M. (G'gow, M'hill) Jay, Rt Hon Douglas
Crowther, Stan John, Brynmor
Cryer, Bob Johnson, James (Hull West)
Cunliffe, Lawrence Johnson, Walter (Derby S)
Cunningham, G. (Islington S) Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rh'dda)
Cunningham, Dr J. (W'h'n) Jones, Barry (East Flint)
Dalyell, Tam Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald
Davidson, Arthur Kerr, Russell
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (L'lli) Kilroy-Silk, Robert
Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) Lambie, David
Davis, Terry (B'ham, Stechf'd) Lamond, James
Deakins, Eric Leadbitter, Ted
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Leighton, Ronald
Dewar, Donald Lestor, Miss Joan
Dobson, Frank Lewis, Arthur (N'ham NW)
Dormand, Jack Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Douglas, Dick Litherland, Robert
Dubs, Alfred Lofthouse, Geoffrey
Duffy, A. E. P. Lyon, Alexander (York)
Dunnett, Jack Lyons, Edward (Bradf'd W)
Dunwoody, Hon Mrs G. McCartney, Hugh
Eadie, Alex McDonald, Dr Oonagh
Eastham, Ken McGuire, Michael (Ince)
Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n S E) McKay, Allen (Penistone)
Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're) McKelvey, William
MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor Shore, Rt Hon Peter
McMahon, Andrew Short, Mrs Renée
McNamara, Kevin Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford)
McTaggart, Robert Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)
Marks, Kenneth Skinner, Dennis
Marshall, D(G'gow S'ton) Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark)
Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Snape, Peter
Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) Spearing, Nigel
Martin, M(G'gow S'burn) Spriggs, Leslie
Mason, Rt Hon Roy Stallard, A. W.
Maxton, John Stewart, Rt Hon D. (W Isles)
Maynard, Miss Joan Stoddart, David
Meacher, Michael Stott, Roger
Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Strang, Gavin
Miller, Dr M. S. (E Kilbride) Straw, Jack
Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby) Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
Mitchell, R. C. (Soton Itchen) Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W)
Morris, Rt Hon A. (W'shawe) Thomas, Dr R.(Carmarthen)
Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw) Thorne, Stan (Preston South
Morris, Rt Hon J. (Aberavon) Tilley, John
Moyle, Rt Hon Roland Tin, James
Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick Torney, Tom
Newens, Stanley Urwin, Rt Hon Tom
Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
O'Neill, Martin Wardell, Gareth
Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Wainwright, E.(Dearne V)
Palmer, Arthur Wainwright, R.(Colne V)
Parker, John Walker, Rt Hon H.(D'caster)
Parry, Robert Watkins, David
Pavitt, Laurie Weetch, Ken
Pendry, Tom Wellbeloved, James
Pitt, William Henry Welsh, Michael
Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) White, Frank R.
Prescott, John White, J. (G'gow Pollok)
Race, Reg Whitehead, Phillip
Radice, Giles Whitlock, William
Rees, Rt Hon M (Leeds S) Wigley, Dafydd
Richardson, Jo Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Roberts, Allan (Bootle) Williams, Rt Hon A.(S'sea W)
Roberts, Ernest (Hackney N) Wilson, Gordon (Dundee E)
Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) Wilson, William (C'try SE)
Robinson, G. (Coventry NW) Winnick, David
Rooker, J. W. Woodall, Alec
Roper, John Woolmer, Kenneth
Ross, Ernest (Dundee West) Wright, Sheila
Rowlands, Ted Young, David (Bolton E)
Sandelson, Neville
Sever, John Tellers for the Ayes:
Sheerman, Barry Mr. George Morton and
Sheldon, Rt Hon R. Mr. Derek Foster
Adley, Robert Brinton, Tim
Alexander, Richard Brittan, Rt. Hon. Leon
Alison, Rt Hon Michael Brooke, Hon Peter
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Brotherton, Michael
Ancram, Michael Brown, Michael(Brigg v& Sc'n)
Aspinwall, Jack Bruce-Gardyne, John
Atkins, Rt Hon H.(S'thorne) Bryan, Sir Paul
Atkinson, David (B'm'th,E) Buck, Antony
Baker, Kenneth(St.M'bone) Budgen, Nick
Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) Bulmer, Esmond
Banks, Robert Burden, Sir Frederick
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Butcher, John
Bendall, Vivian Carlisle, John (Luton West)
Bennett, Sir Frederic (T'bay) Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln)
Benyon, Thomas (A'don) Chalker, Mrs. Lynda
Benyon, W. (Buckingham) Channon, Rt. Hon. Paul
Best, Keith Chapman, Sydney
Bevan, David Gilroy Churchill, W. S.
Biffen, Rt Hon John Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n)
Biggs-Davison, Sir John Clark, Sir W. (Croydon S)
Blackburn, John Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Blaker, Peter Clegg, Sir Walter
Body, Richard Cockeram, Eric
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Colvin, Michael
Boscawen, Hon Robert Cope, John
Bowden, Andrew Corrie, John
Boyson, Dr Rhodes Costain, Sir Albert
Braine, Sir Bernard Cranborne, Viscount
Crouch, David Latham, Michael
Dickens, Geoffrey Lawrence, Ivan
Dorrell, Stephen Lawson, Rt Hon Nigel
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord J. Lee, John
Dover, Denshore Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
du Cann, Rt Hon Edward Lester, Jim (Beeston)
Dunn, Robert (Dartford) Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Durant, Tony Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W'loo)
Dykes, Hugh Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Eden, Rt Hon Sir John Loveridge, John
Edwards, Rt Hon N. (P'broke) Luce, Richard
Eggar, Tim Lyell, Nicholas
Elliott, Sir William McCrindle, Robert
Emery, Sir Peter Macfarlane, Neil
Fairbairn, Nicholas MacGregor, John
Fairgrieve, Sir Russell MacKay, John (Argyll)
Faith, Mrs Sheila Macmillan, Rt Hon M.
Farr, John McNair-Wilson, M. (N'bury)
Fell, Sir Anthony McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st)
Fenner, Mrs Peggy McQuarrie, Albert
Finsberg, Geoffrey Major, John
Fisher, Sir Nigel Marland, Paul
Fletcher, A. (Ed'nb'gh N) Marlow, Antony
Fletcher-Cooke, Sir Charles Marshall, Michael (Arundel)
Forman, Nigel Marten, Rt Hon Neil
Fowler, Rt Hon Norman Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus
Fox, Marcus Mawby, Ray
Fraser, Rt Hon Sir Hugh Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Fry, Peter Mayhew, Patrick
Gardiner, George (Reigate) Meyer, Sir Anthony
Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) Mills, Sir Peter (West Devon)
Garel-Jones, Tristan Miscampbell, Norman
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Glyn, Dr Alan Moate, Roger
Goodhew, Sir Victor Montgomery, Fergus
Goodlad, Alastair Moore, John
Gorst, John Morgan, Geraint
Gow, Ian Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes)
Gower, Sir Raymond Morrison, Hon P. (Chester)
Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) Mudd, David
Grieve, Percy Murphy, Christopher
Griffiths, E.(B'y St. Edm'ds) Myles, David
Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N) Neale, Gerrard
Grist, Ian Nelson, Anthony
Grylls, Michael Neubert, Michael
Gummer, John Selwyn Newton, Tony
Hamilton, Hon A. Onslow, Cranley
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs S.
Hannam, John Page, John (Harrow, West)
Haselhurst, Alan Page, Richard (SW Herts)
Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Parris, Matthew
Hawkins, Sir Paul Patten, Christopher (Bath)
Hawksley, Warren Patten, John (Oxford)
Hayhoe, Barney Pattie, Geoffrey
Heddle, John Pawsey, James
Henderson, Barry Percival, Sir Ian
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael Peyton, Rt Hon John
Hicks, Robert Pink, R. Bonner
Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. Pollock, Alexander
Hill, James Porter, Barry
Holland, Philip (Carlton) Price, Sir David (Eastleigh)
Hooson, Tom Proctor, K. Harvey
Hordern, Peter Raison, Rt Hon Timothy
Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Rathbone, Tim
Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) Rees-Davies, W. R.
Hunt, David (Wirral) Renton, Tim
Irvine, Bryant Godman Rhodes James, Robert
Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) Ridley, Hon Nicholas
Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick Ridsdale, Sir Julian
Jessel, Toby Rifkind, Malcolm
Johnson Smith, Sir Geoffrey Rippon, Rt Hon Geoffrey
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW)
Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Kaberry, Sir Donald Rossi, Hugh
Kershaw, Sir Anthony Rost, Peter
King, Rt Hon Tom Royle, Sir Anthony
Kitson, Sir Timothy Rumbold, Mrs A. C. R.
Knox, David Sainsbury, Hon Timothy
Lamont, Norman St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N.
Lang, Ian Scott, Nicholas
Shaw, Sir Michael (Scarb') Thornton, Malcolm
Shelton, William (Streatham) Townend, John (Bridlington)
Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath)
Shepherd, Richard Trippier, David
Shersby, Michael Trotter, Neville
Silvester, Fred van Straubenzee, Sir W.
Sims, Roger Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Skeet, T. H. H. Viggers, Peter
Smith, Dudley Wakeham, John
Smith, Tim (Beaconsfield) Waldegrave, Hon William
Speed, Keith Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D.
Speller, Tony Wall, Sir Patrick
Spence, John Waller, Gary
Spicer, Michael (S Worcs) Walters, Dennis
Sproat, lain Ward, John
Squire, Robin Warren, Kenneth
Stainton, Keith Wells, Bowen
Stanbrook, Ivor Wells, John (Maidstone)
Stanley, John Wheeler, John
Steen, Anthony Whitney, Raymond
Stevens, Martin Wickenden, Keith
Stewart, A.(E Renfrewshire) Wiggin, Jerry
Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) Wilkinson, John
Stokes, John Williams, D.(Montgomery)
Stradling Thomas, J. Winterton, Nicholas
Tapsell, Peter Wolfson, Mark
Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) Young, Sir George (Acton)
Temple-Morris, Peter
Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs M. Tellers for the Noes:
Thomas, Rt Hon Peter Mr. Anthony Berry and
Thompson, Donald Mr. Carol Mather.
Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)

Question accordingly negatived.

Lords amendment No. 10 agreed to.

Lords amendments Nos. 11 and 12 agreed to.

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