HC Deb 24 May 1982 vol 24 cc639-41
14. Mr. Rowlands

asked the Secretary of State for Wales when he last met representatives of the nursing profession; and when he intends to meet them next.

Mr. Wyn Roberts

I last met national representatives of the nursing profession in February.

I take the opportunity during my regular visits to hospitals and other Health Service establishments of meeting local representatives of all groups of staff in the National Health Service.

Mr. Rowlands

Is the Minister aware that the Government are taxing the patience and professionalism of nurses? Judging from conversations that I have had with nurses at the Prince Charles hospital and at other hospitals in my area, the grievance is not so much about this year's pay increase, as about the fact that the Government have failed to devise a system of comparable pay awards to avoid industrial disputes. The Government have put the nurses in an invidious position because of the threat of strike action in the Health Service.

Mr. Roberts

The hon. Gentleman is under a misapprehension. The nurses have been offered an increase of 6.4 per cent. and are being balloted on that. The ballot closes on 28 May. We have been anxious to devise a long-term strategy for agreement with the nurses. Indeed, my hon. and learned the Friend the Minister for Health is working along those lines.

Mr. Alec Jones

If it is necessary to reconcile levels of pay and other expenditure in the National Health Service, why is it not necessary to reconcile pay levels in the judiciary? Why does a judge need 21 per cent., while National Health Service employees need 4 per cent. and nurses 6.4 per cent? If the Minister and the Government were genuinely interested in maintaining a National Health Service and in improving patient care they would give that loyal, hard-working and devoted service a fair deal.

Mr. Roberts

National Health Service employees are being offered a fair and realistic deal. As regards the Top Salaries Review Body, the right hon. Gentleman knows as well as I do that pay has been held below the levels judged appropriate in 1980. Therefore, the two groups are not in any way comparable.

Mr. Grist

Will my hon. Friend confirm that the Royal College of Nursing wants to reach an agreement with the Government on a new form of pay for nurses but that the actions of the Confederation of Health Service Employees and the National Union of Public Employees are getting in the way?

Mr. Roberts

I am not sure that my hon. Friend is absolutely correct, because negotiations are still proceeding with my hon. and learned Friend the Minister for Health. We hope that a long-term method of settling nurses' wages will be evolved.

Mr. John Morris

How is a fair deal being offered?

Mr. Roberts

It is fair, because, as I have said, we must reconcile the demand for increased and better services with the demand for increased pay. Throughout our period of office we have increased the amount of money available, in real terms, to the National Health Service. I repeat that the wage bill for the National Health Service has increased by no less than 85 per cent. in the past three years. Surely the right hon. and learned Gentleman understands that the demand for improved services has also increased.

Mr. Wigley

Is it not an apalling reflection on the Government's priorities that they cannot find money for a reasonable wage settlement without threatening to cut jobs and without threatening a longer waiting list for the thousands of people who are awaiting hospital services yet they can find £1,000 million at the drop of a hat to play war games in the South Atlantic?

Mr. Roberts

I hope that I have not threatened redundancies. I said that redundancies were not threatened, as they were in many other industries. For example, in the private sector many people have had to take a cut instead of an increase in wages. However, we have increased the number of employees in the National Health Service. The increase proposed is worth £21 million.