§ 13. Mr. Gristasked the Secretary of State for Wales what effect current industrial action is having on the Health Service in Wales; and if he will make a statement.
§ Mr. Wyn RobertsThe action is causing general disruption of hospital and clinical services. It is interfering with patient care and is potentially damaging to those waiting for treatment.
§ Mr. GristIf the disgraceful state of affairs continues, what effect will it have on waiting lists? What will be the likely result for Health Service employees if their pay demand is met in full?
§ Mr. RobertsSince the Government have been in office we have reduced waiting lists, but such action will undoubtedly lengthen them. We have increased the number of those employed by the National Health Service in Wales. We have taken on about 2,600 nurses and 3,000 additional employees in all. The problem with the 12 per cent. wage demand is that it must be reconciled with the demands for patient services. We believe that the Government's offer is realistic in relation to the demand for increased patient care and the resources that the country can afford.
§ Mr. AndersonWill the Minister also consider with some compassion the other side of the equation, which is that we have been paying far too little to our Health Service workers for a long time? Has he been as shocked as I have to see the average take-home pay of ancillary workers in the NHS? As we have been getting those people on the cheap, will he reconsider the offer that has been made?
§ Mr. RobertsThe hon. Gentleman knows that nurses received increases in 1979, 1980 and 1981. They had the 22 per cent. Clegg commission increase and they have had a reduction from 40 hours a week to 37½ hours a week, which is worth 6.5 per cent. The total wage bill in the Health Service has increased by 85 per cent. during the past three years.
§ Mr. D. E. ThomasDoes the Minister not accept that the dispute has been caused by the Government's 639 intransigence? As a Welsh Office Minister, will the hon. Gentleman involve himself in such issues instead of taking the line adopted over the years, that negotiations with public sector workers are not a matter for the Department?
§ Mr. RobertsPrimarily, these are matters for the Whitley council. I do not accept that hon. Gentleman's charge of Government intransigence. The Secretary of State for Social Services is well aware of the situation.
§ Sir Anthony MeyerIs my hon. Friend aware that nurses and medical staff have managed to keep hospitals going during the dispute by grossly overworking themselves? As the Labour Government made only a half-hearted attempt to maintain reasonable pay levels in the National Health Service, is it not shabby of the Labour Party to give all-out backing to industrial action that is aimed direct at the patient?
§ Mr. RobertsI agree with practically everything that my hon. Friend has said. Of course, the Labour Party is the first to criticise any possible inadequacies in the National Health Service. We must reconcile the demand for increased patient care and services with that for increased pay. We have increased the numbers employed in the National Health Service with a view to improving services, but we cannot give such pay increases without calling for redundancies at the same time.
§ Mr. ColemanDoes the Minister not realise that the free collective bargaining that the Conservative Party upheld at the general election, but which has now been negated by this miserly increase for Health Service workers, is destroying the morale of the service? How can Whitley councils pursue meaningful negotiations when they are restricted by the amount of money that the Government make available to meet the claims?
§ Mr. RobertsThe Government have increased the amount of money spent on the National Health Service in Wales from £398 million in 1978–79 to £743 million in the current year. I cannot think of anything more calculated to demoralise the National Health Service than the action that is now taking place, with the apparent support of the Opposition.
§ Mr. Roy HughesHave not these moderate and responsible people been driven to desperate measures by the Government's measly offer? Last Saturday morning a man who had come to see me handed me his pay ticket showing the figures £64.22 gross and £51.40 net. How is he to meet the increased food costs resulting from the Common Market's action?
§ Mr. RobertsI cannot conceivably relate that point to the Common Market. However, I reiterate that we must reconcile the levels of pay in the National Health Service with the demand for increased and improved patient care.