HC Deb 25 November 1981 vol 13 cc874-5
7. Mr. Newens

asked the Secretary of State for Transport what is the current level of Government grants towards the cost of policing London Transport.

Mr. Kenneth Clarke

No specific grant is made by the Government towards these costs. They are part of London Transport's overall costs, for which it receives support from the GLC; that support is eligible for transport supplementary grant from the Government.

Mr. Newens

Will the Minister give a detailed breakdown of the actual amounts provided for London Transport and British Rail? Until he does that, is it not fair to assume that the railways are unfairly penalised by having to pay for policing services, when the road haulage industry does not?

Mr. Clarke

We do not break down grant in quite that way, so as to leave local authorities discretion about how they pay the grant received. In fact, we agreed with Sir Horace Cutler that there would be increased expenditure of £9 million spread over three years on new equipment for London Transport policing. That was taken into account when we paid transport supplementary grant to London last year. During the last year the number of British Transport police deployed on London Transport has risen from 160 to 270.

Mr. McCrindle

After a conference in May 1980, was not an additional grant forthcoming for policing both London Transport and British Rail? Can my hon. and learned Friend confirm that, as a result of the increased numbers of people employed and the improved equipment, there has been a reduction in the incidence of violence on London Transport? Finally, will he confirm that a similar amount will be forthcoming in the year ahead?

Mr. Clarke

Yes. I have just referred to one follow-up from that conference—the agreement with Sir Horace Cutler. The transport supplementary grant to London was higher than it would otherwise have been in order to take account of that. The purchase of radios and vandal-proof ticket selling machines is currently taking place. I do not have figures about the reduction of crime, but we hope that these improvements are having some effect in protecting passengers and property.

Mr. Dobson

Does the Minister agree that one of the reasons for the increase in vandalism and violence on the underground system is the demanning policies pursued by successive Governments? Does he agree that the reduction in the number of staff on stations means that nobody is available to come to the aid of guards or drivers or the limited number of staff there? Will he confirm that there is no recorded case of a ticket vending machine coming to the assistance of a member of staff who has been attacked?

Mr. Clarke

I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman's analysis. This is just another ingenious way in which a Labour Member for London is trying to increase the staffing on London Transport. Ratepayers would be better off if manning were brought down to the level actually required by the services.