HC Deb 11 June 1981 vol 6 cc537-8
8. Mr. Joan Evans

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he will introduce further measures to reduce the size of the prison population.

24. Mr. Kilroy-Silk

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department if he proposes to introduce any further measures to reduce the size of the prison population.

Mr. Mayhew

As indicated in the recent "Review of Parole", my right hon. Friend is considering whether to extend the concept of parole to shorter-term prisoners. Meanwhile, a significant reduction in the prison population is most likely to be achieved through the implementation of the guidance given by the Court of Appeal regarding custodial sentences for less serious offences.

Mr. Evans

What is the cost of keeping someone in prison for a week? As the hon. and learned Gentleman said earlier, there are 43,000 people in prison. What is the total public expenditure? Does he agree that radical alternatives to custodial sentences are needed as forms of punishment? Does he support the Home Office working party document, which suggests open prisons in urban areas?

Mr. Mayhew

As the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) said earlier on the subject of democracy, it is an expensive business. Prison accommodation is necessary for those who should be in prison for the protection of the public. I think that the cost on average is about £136 a week—I do not carry the figure in my head—to keep someone in prison. It is important to take a balanced view of our present sentencing practices. If possible, we should reduce the use of custodial sentences, without increasing the risk to the public. That is the thinking that guides the Government's policy.

Mr. Kilroy-Silk

Does the Minister accept that on current estimates about 100 probation officers will finish their training this summer and not find employment within the probation service? Does he agree that that is a deplorable waste of trained manpower, particularly at a time when both he and the Home Secretary are enjoining greater use of the probation order, and when, if the review of the parole system is implemented, a further 7,000 parolees will be supervised by the probation service? Will the Minister now inject further cash into the probation service to ensure that those people are employed and that more people are supervised in the community

Mr. Mayhew

Any unemployment in any sector of the community is tragic and should be avoided, if possible. However, it cannot be right to change sentencing practices simply to provide employment for probation officers. One of the consequences—possibly not one of primary importance—of the proposals put forward by the parole review is that the number of probation officers would need to be increased to supervise those released. However, I emphasise that that is not a primary reason for changing sentencing practices.

Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson

Does my hon. and learned Friend agree that the reduction in prison sentences should not be looked upon as an alternative to an adequate prison building programme? Does he support what the chairman of the Parole Board said, that if 3,000 people were not currently on parole the prison system would break down?

Mr. Mayhew

The latter part of my hon. Friend's question is true. We inherited no prison building programme from the Labour Government. We have set in train a substantial programme of two new prison starts a year, beginning in this financial year, but that will provide no additional places in the prison system before the late 1980s. Adequate prison accommodation must be available for those for whom it is needed in order to protect the public.

Mr. Joseph Dean

Is the Minister aware that the Government's policy is having no effect on Armley prison in my constituency, that the situation continues to deteriorate week by week, and that the recent reply that I received from Lord Belstead that there would be no improvements there until 1987, at the earliest, is intolerable? Will he consider expediting the plans to extend that prison and make it more tolerable?

Mr. Mayhew

I note the hon. Gentleman's proper concern about conditions in the prison in his constituency. I cannot hold out hopes of an expedited implementation of the programme there, but it highlights the critical nature of prison overcrowding as a whole.