HC Deb 16 July 1981 vol 8 cc1373-5
6. Mr. Winnick

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what discussions he has had with the new Government of the Republic of Ireland about Northern Ireland.

16. Mr. Flannery

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he has any plans to hold discussions with the new Government of the Republic of Ireland.

Mr. Humphrey Atkins

On 3 July I attended a meeting which my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal had with the acting Minister for Foreign Affairs of the Republic and the Foreign Minister designate, at which they made known to us their views on current issues in Northern Ireland which affect them. There are no plans for further meetings at present, but meetings will take place as and when appropriate between myself and my collegues and Ministers of the new Government in the Republic.

Mr. Winnick

Does the Minister agree that relations between Her Majesty's Government and the new Irish Government are unlikely to be normal until a solution has been found to the hunger strike? Is not the Irish Government's view that the dividing line between the British Government and the hunger strikers is now very narrow? Since the Irish Government support terrorism no more than we do, should not an effective effort be made by the Government to find a solution to the strike?

Mr. Atkins

We have been doing our utmost for the past nine months to bring the strike to an end, and we shall continue to do so, but there is no way in which we shall abandon the two principles upon which our position has always rested. First, we shall not acknowledge that a political motive for a crime makes it less heinous, and, secondly, we shall not surrender control of the prisons to the prisoners.

Mr. Flannery

Will the Minister accept that the Southern Irish Government are under far more pressure over Northern Ireland than previous Irish Governments have been? Will he also accept that on a cross-party delegation five or six years ago, when we spoke, for instance, to Garret FitzGerald and to Conor Cruise O'Brien, before he fled to The Observer, they would not take Northern Ireland into account because they did not believe that it was electorally important, but that now it is very important? Therefore, because of the massive pressures in the Republic and in Britain, should not the two Governments get together and make at least some concession to break the log jam. If they do not, we shall be killing each other for years and years. Should the right hon. Gentleman not take some action, such as allowing the prisoners to wear their own clothes in gaol, which is one of the five points?

Mr. Atkins

I entirely accept that it is sensible for Ministers of both Governments to get together to discuss matters of common concern, and that is precisely what happened at the meeting held by my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal, which I attended. I have no doubt that the Government of the Republic have their difficulties; all Governments do. However., that is no reason for us to abandon the principles to which we have stuck, with the support of the House, for the past nine months.

Mr. J. Enoch Powell

In view of the Secretary of State's earlier welcome intimation that communications between Her Majesty's Government and the Government of the Irish Republic are the responsibility of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, why did he accept this question?

Mr. Atkins

I did so because the question asked what discussions I had had, and not what discussions any other Minister had had. I therefore reported to the House on the meeting. I repeat my words for the right hon. Gentleman's benefit. I attended a meeting which my right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal had. So I did.

Mr. Kilfedder

Did the Eire Minister mention the Irish Commission for Justice and Peace? If so, the Secretary of State should bear in mind that that is a misnomer and that its correct name is the Irish Roman Catholic commission for Republican victory in Northern Ireland. Will he make sure that he deals with it with great care, or he will end up talking with the hunger strikers in the Maze prison?

Mr. Atkins

I only know the Irish Commission for Justice and Peace by the name that it gives itself. I do not know what else it is called by other people. As the hon.

Gentleman knows, the prisoners have rejected the commission's proposals as falling far short of their demands, and they do not want to see it any more.

Mr. Fitt

Does the Secretary of State accept that recent statements emerging from the prisoners at Long Kesh seem to recognise that the demands for political status have been withdrawn? It was on the basis of those demands that I took the stand with him in saying that they should never be given political status for the crimes that they committed. May we now be in a position where it is possible to lose face and save lives? May this issue hinge on the question of saving face and losing lives? If the Provisional IRA and its members have withdrawn the claim for political status, to which I was bitterly opposed, may there not now be room for manoeuvre?

Mr. Atkins

I obviously take seriously what the hon. Gentleman says, but he places me in something of a difficulty. The next question on the Order Paper from the hon. Member for Battersea, South (Mr. Dubs) deals with precisely those matters. However, may I say that I always listen carefully to what the hon. Gentleman has to say?

Mr. Farr

Is it not rather difficult to have a close relationship with the Government of the Republic when they have apparently invited a foreign Government to intervene in Northern Ireland? Did the Irish Government consult my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary over the invitation to President Reagan to intervene?

Mr. Atkins

I can only say that there was no consultation with me, but then I would not expect there to be. As I said earlier, relations with foreign countries are a matter for my right hon. Friend the Foreign Secretary. The Government of the Republic, as was said earlier, have their own difficulties, but then all of us do.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I shall not be able to go around all the parties for the rest of questions if we are to make progress.