HC Deb 16 July 1981 vol 8 cc1375-7
7. Mr. Dubs

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he now has any proposals to alter prison regulations in Northern Ireland.

12. Mr. Cryer

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will visit Her Majesty's prison, Maze.

Mr. Humphrey Atkins

As to the question of my visiting the prison, I have done so in the past and will do so again when I judge it appropriate.

The position as regards prison regimes in Northern Ireland was set out in my statements of 30 June and 8 July, copies of which are in the Library of the House. I have made it clear throughout that I do not rule out the possibility of further reform when the hunger strike comes to an end. The protesting prisoners indicated, in a statement made on 4 July, that they are not looking for special treatment compared with other prisoners. That may mean that they are now more concerned with prison conditions. Therefore, I thought it right, as I announced yesterday, to accept an offer by the International Committee of the Red Cross to visit Northern Ireland prisons to assess conditions there and, if it thinks fit, to make recommendations to improve them.

Mr. Dubs

Is the Secretary of State aware that, despite what he said this afternoon and on earlier occasions, many people are still genuinely puzzled as to why the hunger strike has not yet been brought to an end? Given that the prisoners have dropped their wish to be treated separately from other prisoners in the gaol, and that they appear to have conceded that there should be no para-military organisation in the gaol, what remaining issues prevent an agreement to bring the matter to an end?

Mr. Atkins

I share the hon. Gentleman's puzzlement as to why the prisoners are continuing their hunger strike. They appear to have dropped their demand for differential treatment. If, therefore, they are complaining about prison conditions, which it appears that they are, they have always had the remedy available to them to complain to the European Commission of Human Rights. They do not take it, and I do not know why. However, if it is a matter of prison conditions, it seems right to accept the offer of the International Committee of the Red Cross, which has wide experience in these matters. We believe that the conditions in the Maze prison are superior to conditions in any other prison, and I am convinced that we are right. Nevertheless, it is right that the International Committee of the Red Cross should go in. In fact, I hope that it is going to the prison this afternoon. If it has comments to make, we wish to hear them.

Mr. Cryer

Does the Minister agree that the Red Cross committee, though no doubt welcome, is no substitute for negotiations with the Government, who run the prisons and with whom, presumably, the hunger strikers regard themselves as being in dispute? As the Minister has specifically mentioned political status and control of prisons, and as those two conditions now appear to have been dropped, cannot negotiations now take place which will reduce the loss of life both inside and outside the prisons? Is not that something that everybody wants?

Mr. Atkins

This is not a trade dispute. These men have been convicted by the courts of hideous crimes.

Mr. Cryer

But these men are starving to death.

Mr. Atkins

The Government's business is to carry out the sentence of the court, which is that they should be kept in prison for whatever term of years has been imposed. It is our duty to do that, and by doing that to protect the public. It is also our duty, as we judge it, to have the most humane and best regime that we can in the prisons, consistent with securing the safety of the public by keeping these people inside. This we are anxious to do. As I have said, it is my belief that conditions in the Maze are superior to those anywhere else. We shall see. The International Committee of the Red Cross, which has wide experience of prisons throughout the world, is coming to look.

Rev. Ian Paisley

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that, the prisoners having made it clear in their call to the Prime Minister of the Irish Republic that he should now support all of the five points, they have dropped none of the five points? Moreover,did not the right hon. Gentleman himself say at the Dispatch Box that in his opinion those five points constitute political status?

Mr. Atkins

It was not my opinion that they constituted political status. That was what the prisoners themselves said way back in 1976. It is their interpretation of political status that those five demands should be met. As regards their calls on the Government of the Republic to support them, they are trying desperately to get support wherever they can.

Mr. McCusker

Will the Secretary of State confirm that as late as this morning Mr. Gerry Adams said that the International Red Cross should visit the Maze only if it intended to support the five demands? Will he go further and recommend to his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary that when that international body has visited the Maze it will find time also to visit Rollestone camp, which I believe is to be used to house the rioters on the mainland, and make a decision as to whether facilities there are in any way comparable with those offered in the Maze?

Mr. Atkins

I have seen the same report about what Gerry Adams said, and it is perhaps not surprising that he should have said it. As I have said, the International Committee of the Red Cross has its own standards and its own way of going about things. I have no doubt that when its representatives go into the Maze—they may even now be there—they will exercise their judgment and do their job impartially, whatever Mr. Adams may say. The International Committee of the Red Cross has not been invited to visit prisons in the rest of the United Kingdom.