British Telecommunications Bill (Hansard, 1 April 1981)

§ Mr. Ian Mikardo (Bethnal Green and Bow)
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am well aware that your provisional selection of amendments on the Report stage of a Bill is a matter that lies entirely within your discretion. I am equally aware, if I may be allowed to say so, of the great confidence of the House in the way in which you exercise that discretion in this matter as in other matters. I am therefore very diffident about raising this point at all. I do so because I believe genuinely that there is a special point of principle in relation to your decision not to include new clause 8 in the provisional list. Perhaps, Mr. Speaker, you will be kind enought to allow me a moment or two to explain.
I have very much in mind that an almost identical situation, though on a vastly different subject, arose during the' Report stage of the Abortion (Amendment) Bill in the last Session. On that occasion, too, Mr. Speaker, you decided not to include on your provisional list an amendment in relation to what had previously transpired in the course of the Bill but I understand that you were subsequently convinced by some submissions made by one of my right hon. and learned Friends that you should look at it again. You did look at it, while the Bill was going through, and came to a different conclusion.
Part I of the Bill being discussed today concerns telecommunications and part II the postal services. A new clause was moved in Committee, during the passage of part I, to cover the question of telephone tapping. It was read a Second time and the motion to include it in the Bill was carried with the support of hon. Members of all three parties represented on the Committee. It now appears in the Bill as clause 47. Subsequently it was decided, after consultation between hon. Members on both sides, that it needed changing. An amendment later in today's business makes the change.
During discussion of part II of the Bill an identical new clause was moved covering a similar point, namely, the interception of mail. The interception of telephone conversations and the interception of mail are on an equal footing as being interference with the liberties of the citizen. Indeed, the Minister, with his customary open-mindedness and frankness, although he resisted the proposals, admitted that. The points are identical. The new clause connected with the interception of mail was given a Second Reading but the motion to include it in the Bill was defeated by a single vote. New clause 8, with the exception of a single word, follows the pattern of the compromise on telephone tapping that was agreed between hon. Members on both sides
It seems to me, with the utmost respect, Mr. Speaker, that the case for our going over the ground covered by the Committee on telephone tapping is no stronger than that for going over the ground covered by the interception of mail. With the deepest respect, I invite you, Mr. Speaker, harking back to my memories of the occasion in the last Session, and since we have some time between now and the stage when the clause will be reached—there are five 293 Government new clauses and three amendments to consider—to be kind enough to give further consideration to this matter.

§ Mr. Stanley Orme (Salford, West)
Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. I wish to support the case presented by my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Mr. Mikardo). We have difficulty seeing the difference between telephone tapping and the interception of mail. We also understand that the new clause proposed in Committee was defeated by the casting vote of the Chairman. That normally means that the matter can be brought back to the Floor of the House. It is not a rule, but normally such a course is given serious consideration. For those reasons, Mr. Speaker, I would ask you to consider the point that has been made.

§ Mr. Speaker
I think that the right hon. Gentleman is not quite correct in what he has said about the casting vote. The matter was not decided by the casting vote of the Chairman. There was a majority of one in the Committee.
I express my deep gratitude to the hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Mr. Mikardo) for the manner in which he raised his point of order. I am deeply grateful for his reference to me. When amendments have to be selected I naturally spend a lot of time considering them. The provisional list of amendments that I have selected is very long, although I bear in mind that the majority appear to be Government amendments.
I shall look again at the matter in view of the hon. Gentleman's remarks. I am due back in the Chamber later—I do not like to be tied to a time—and I will make a statement when I have looked at the points raised by the hon. Gentleman and by his right hon. Friend.