DEFENCE (Hansard, 26 June 1980)

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill)
The Question is—

§ Mr. Tam Dalyell (West Lothian)
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. I am on my feet.

§ Mr. Dalyell
On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I am not complaining against you, but in the presence of the Government Chief Whip and the usual channels I should like the Chief Whip's attention—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. The point of order must be directed to the Chair and not to the Government Chief Whip.

§ Mr. Dalyell
You may recollect, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that during the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Mr. Concannon) the Minister interrupted—I do not blame him for that—to say that by some oversight he had failed to make it clear that item No. 2 on the Order Paper, the motion relating to the Army, and Air Force and Naval Discipline Acts (Continuation) Order, would be taken with the main debate. It will also be within your recollection that I said at the time that I did not want to interrupt further the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield. Therefore, in a sense, assent was given by the House.
It may be a narrow issue, but consider what has happened. I wished to raise an important matter in the debate on the different attitudes to discipline in Northern Ireland and in the remainder of the Services, which is surely covered by item No. 2. Through no fault of his own, the Minister did not get around to answering my point. That is precisely what happens when, for convenience sake, we truncate our procedures.
I do not know the exact nature of the agreement that was entered into, but some of us will continue to object to such informal arrangements for convenience, made through the usual channels and possibly for genuine reasons. I am not saying that they tried to get round, or get out of, the issue. A very important issue appeared on the Order Paper and it was proper to raise the matter. But the only opportunity to raise a sensitive matter about discipline in Northern Ireland and the discipline of the Army, which raises many important issues that 886 worry many people, was not reached. That is what happened when we mess around with our procedures.
I am not making a complaint against you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, or against Mr. Speaker or anyone else. It was done in good faith. But I wish to put down a marker that some of us will continue to object to such fudging around with matters that appear on the Order Paper. The usual channels had no business to do that.

§ Mr. Robert C. Brown (Newcastle upon Tyne, West)
Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. My hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) is a straight man and I am sure that he would not wish to mislead the House. However, he has inadvertently done so. In his earlier submission, he said that it was through no fault of the Minister that he had not been able to respond to the simple point raised by my hon. Friend earlier today vis-à-vis discipline in Northern Ireland and Great Britain. It was directly through the discourtesy of the Minister in failing to give way to myself, that he did not have time to respond to the point raised by my hon. Friend.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
That is not a point of order. If I may deal with the point of order raised by the hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell), as I explained earlier this afternoon I am not a party to anything that goes on between the usual channels. I asked the House whether it agreed that the two items should be taken together, and that was agreed. I think that the hon. Member for West Lothian understands that fully.

§ Mr. Dalyell
My point was simply that it would have been most discourteous to have started an argument on this matter in the middle of the speech of my right hon. Friend the Member for Mansfield (Mr. Concannon). May we leave it, then, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that this will be raised with you as Chairman of Ways and Means and that perhaps over the next few weeks we may reflect on the issues involved to see what can be done in the future?

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Perhaps we had better leave the matter there.