§ Dr. John CunninghamI beg to move amendment No. 9, in page 3, leave out lines 16 to 42.
I shall be brief, as usual. Clause 3 gives the NEB the power to pass to the Secretary of State, with a consequential reduction of its capital, the proceeds of disposals that could be directed by the Secretary of State.
The way in which the clause is drafted leaves open the possibility, which the Secretary of State mentioned, that the NEB will retain some of the proceeds of its disposals for reinvestment. Without the clause, the NEB would have no power to remit the proceeds of disposals to the Government, and the much-publicised but now doubtful raising of £100 million as a contribution to the reduction of the public sector borrowing requirement would not be possible.
§ We are opposed to the disposal of public assets in that way. No sound commercial judgment is in evidence for insisting on the disposal.
§ Mr. David MitchellThe purpose of the clause is to put into effect the matters that were debated at some length on amendment No. 8. Therefore, I can be as brief as the hon. Member for White-haven (Dr. Cunningham).
As the amendment is consequential, it follows automatically that the Government feel that they should have the machinery by which they can transfer the public dividend capital by reduction and enable it to parallel the reduction in assets and money transferred to the Treasury with the reduction in the nominal public dividend capital. For that reason, we are unable to accept the amendment.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 225, Noes 302.
655| Division No. 158] | AYES | [10.55 pm |
| Abse, Leo | Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) |
| Adams, Allen | Armstrong, Rt Hon Ernest | Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) |
| Allaun, Frank | Ashley, Rt Hon Jack | Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood |
| Anderson, Donald | Ashton, Joe | Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Grant, John (Islington C) | Owen, Rt Hon Dr David |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) | Palmer, Arthur |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Hardy, Peter | Park, George |
| Bradley, Tom | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Parry, Robert |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith | Pavitt, Laurie |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) |
| Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) | Haynes, Frank | Prescott, John |
| Brown, Ronald W. (Hackney S) | Healey, Rt Hon Denis | Price, Christopher (Lewisham West) |
| Brown, Ron (Edinburgh, Leith) | Heffer, Eric S. | Race, Reg |
| Buchan, Norman | Hogg, Norman (E Dunbartonshire) | Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds South) |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) | Holland, Stuart (L'beth, Vauxhall) | Richardson, Jo |
| Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) | Home Robertson, John | Roberts, Allan (Bootle) |
| Campbell, Ian | Horam, John | Roberts, Ernest (Hackney North) |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Huckfield, Les | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) |
| Canavan, Dennis | Hudson Davies, Gwilym Ednyfed | Robertson, George |
| Cant, R. B. | Hughes, Mark (Durham) | Rodgers, Rt Hon William |
| Carmichael, Neil | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen North) | Rooker, J. W. |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Ross, Ernest (Dundee West) |
| Clark, Dr David (South Shields) | Janner, Hon Greville | Rowlands, Ted |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Jay, Rt Hon Douglas | Ryman, John |
| Cohen, Stanley | John, Brynmor | Sandelson, Neville |
| Coleman, Donald | Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rhondda) | Sever, John |
| Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. | Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Sheerman, Barry |
| Cook, Robin F. | Jones, Dan (Burnley) | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert (A'ton-u-L) |
| Craigen, J. M. (Glasgow, Maryhill) | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald | Shore, Rt Hon Peter (Step and Pop) |
| Crowther, J. S. | Kerr, Russell | Short, Mrs. Ranée |
| Cryer, Bob | Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Lambie, David | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) |
| Cunningham, George (Islington S) | Lamborn, Harry | Silverman, Julius |
| Cunningham, Dr John (Whitehaven) | Lamond, James | Smith, Rt Hon J. (North Lanarkshire) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Leadbitter, Ted | Soley, Clive |
| Davidson, Arthur | Leighton, Ronald | Spearing, Nigel |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney Central) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Stallard, A. W. |
| Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford) | Litherland, Robert | Stewart, Rt Hon Donald (W Isles) |
| Deakins, Eric | Lofthouse, Geoffrey | Stoddart, David |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Lyons, Edward (Bradford West) | Stott, Roger |
| Dempsey, James | McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Strang, Gavin |
| Dewar, Donald | McElhone, Frank | Straw, Jack |
| Dixon, Donald | McGuire, Michael (Ince) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton West) |
| Dobson, Frank | McKelvey, William | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| Dormand, Jack | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Thomas, Mike (Newcastle East) |
| Douglas, Dick | Maclennan, Robert | Thomas, Dr Roger (Carmarthen) |
| Douglas-Mann, Bruce | McMahon, Andrew | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Dubs, Alfred | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, Central) | Tilley, John |
| Duffy, A. E. P. | McNally, Thomas | Tinn, James |
| Dunn, James A. (Liverpool, Kirkdale) | McNamara, Kevin | Torney, Tom |
| Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth | McWilliam, John | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Eadie, Alex | Magee, Bryan | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) |
| Eastham, Ken | Marks, Kenneth | Walker, Rt Hon Harold (Doncaster) |
| Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire) | Marshall, David (Gl'sgow, Shettles'n) | Watkins, David |
| Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Weetch, Ken |
| English, Michael | Marshall, Jim (Leicester South) | Wellbeloved, James |
| Evans, loan (Aberdare) | Martin, Michael (Gl'gow, Springb'rn) | Welsh, Michael |
| Evans, John (Newton) | Mason, Rt Hon Roy | White, Frank R. (Bury & Radcliffe) |
| Ewing, Harry | Maxton, John | White, James (Glasgow, Pollock) |
| Field, Frank | Maynard, Miss Joan | Whitlock, William |
| Flannery, Martin | Meacher, Michael | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Mikardo, Ian | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) |
| Ford, Ben | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee East) |
| Forrester, John | Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby) | Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton) |
| Foster, Derek | Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Foulkes, George | Morris, Rt Hon Charles (Openshaw) | Winnick, David |
| Fraser, John (Lambeth, Norwood) | Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon) | Woodall, Alec |
| Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Morton, George | Woolmer, Kenneth |
| Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Moyle, Rt Hon Roland | |
| Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) | Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| Ginsburg, David | Newens, Stanley | |
| Golding, John | Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Gourlay, Harry | O'Halloran, Michael | Mr. James Hamilton and |
| Graham, Ted | O'Neill, Martin | Mr. Hugh McCartney |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | |
| NOES | ||
| Adley, Robert | Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East) | Biffen, Rt Hon John |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) | Biggs-Davison, John |
| Alexander, Richard | Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) | Blackburn, John |
| Alison, Michael | Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Blaker, Peter |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Bell, Sir Ronald | Body, Richard |
| Ancram, Michael | Bendall, Vivian | Bonsor, Sir Nicholas |
| Arnold, Tom | Benyon, Thomas (Abingdon) | Boscawen, Hon Robert |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Benyon, W. (Buckingham) | Bottomley, Peter (Woolwich West) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Bevan, David Gilroy | Bowden, Andrew |
| Atkins, Robert (Preston North) | Best, Keith | Boyson, Dr Rhodes |
| Bradford, Rev. R. | Hastings, Stephen | Newton, Tony |
| Bright, Graham | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael | Normanton, Tom |
| Brinton, Tim | Hawksley, Warren | Nott, Rt Hon John |
| Brittan, Leon | Hayhoe, Barney | Osborn, John |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher | Heddle, John | Page, John (Harrow, West) |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Henderson, Barry | Page, Rt Hon Sir R. Graham |
| Brotherton, Michael | Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael | Page, Richard (SW Hertfordshire) |
| Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe) | Hicks, Robert | Parris, Matthew |
| Browne, John (Winchester) | Higgins, Rt Kon Terence L. | Patten, Christopher (Bath) |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | Hill, James | Patten, John (Oxford) |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham) | Pawsey, James |
| Buchanan-Smith, Hon Alick | Holland, Philip (Carlton) | Penhaligon, David |
| Budgen, Nick | Hooson, Tom | Percival, Sir Ian |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Hordern, Peter | Pink, R. Bonner |
| Burden, F. A. | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Pollock, Alexander |
| Butcher, John | Howell, Rt Hon David (Guildford) | Porter, George |
| Butler, Hon Adam | Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) | Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch (S Down) |
| Cadbury, Jocelyn | Howells, Geraint | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Carlisle, John (Luton West) | Hunt, David (Wirral) | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) | Pym, Rt Hon Francis |
| Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn) | Hurd, Hon Douglas | Raison, Timothy |
| Chalker, Mrs. Lynda | Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) | Rathbone, Tim |
| Channon, Paul | Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick | Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal) |
| Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) | Jessel, Toby | Rees-Davies, W. R. |
| Clark, Sir William (Croydon South) | Johnson Smith, Geoffrey | Renton, Tim |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Rhodes James, Robert |
| Cockeram, Eric | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Colvin, Michael | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Ridley, Hon Nicholas |
| Cope, John | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Rifkind, Malcolm |
| Cormack, Patrick | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) |
| Corrie, John | Kershaw, Anthony | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Costain, A. P. | Kimball, Marcus | Ross, Wm. (Londonderry) |
| Cranborne, Viscount | King, Rt Hon Tom | Rossi, Hugh |
| Critchley, Julian | Knight, Mrs Jill | Rost, Peter |
| Crouch, David | Knox, David | Royle, Sir Anthony |
| Dean, Paul (North Somerset) | Lang, Ian | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Latham, Michael | St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon Norman |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Lawrence, Ivan | Scott, Nicholas |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Lawson, Nigel | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Dover, Denshore | Lee, John | Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) |
| du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Le Merchant, Spencer | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Dunn, Robert (Dartford) | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) |
| Durant, Tony | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Shepherd, Richard(Aldridge-Br'hills) |
| Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Lloyd, Ian (Havant & Waterloo) | Shersby, Michael |
| Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke) | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Silvester, Fred |
| Eggar, Timothy | Loveridge, John | Sims, Roger |
| Elliott, Sir William | Luce, Richard | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Emery, Peter | Lyell, Nicholas | Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) |
| Eyre, Reginald | Macfarlane, Neil | Smith, Dudley (War. and Leam'ton) |
| Fairgrieve, Russell | MacGregor, John | Speller, Tony |
| Faith, Mrs Sheila | MacKay, John (Argyll) | Spence, John |
| Farr, John | McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury) | Spicer, Jim (West Dorset) |
| Fell, Anthony | McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) | Spicer, Michael (S Worcestershire) |
| Fenner, Mrs Peggy | McQuarrie, Albert | Sproat, Iain |
| Finsberg, Geoffrey | Madel, David | Squire, Robin |
| Fisher, Sir Nigel | Major, John | Stainton, Keith |
| Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh N) | Marland, Paul | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Marlow, Antony | Stanley, John |
| Fookes, Miss Janet | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Forman, Nigel | Marten, Neil (Banbury) | Steen, Anthony |
| Fowler, Rt Hon Norman | Maude, Rt Hon Angus | Stevens, Martin |
| Fox, Marcus | Mawby, Ray | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) |
| Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) | Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire) |
| Fraser, Peter (South Angus) | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Stokes, John |
| Fry, Peter | Mayhew, Patrick | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Galbraith, Hon T. G. D. | Mellor, David | Tapsell, Peter |
| Gardiner George (Reigate) | Meyer, Sir Anthony | Taylor, Robert (Croydon NW) |
| Gardner, Edward (South Fylde) | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch) | Tebbit, Norman |
| Garel-Jones, Tristan | Mills, Iain (Meriden) | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian | Mills, Peter (West Devon) | Thompson, Donald |
| Glyn, Dr Alan | Miscampbell, Norman | Thorne, Neil (Ilford South) |
| Gorst, John | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Gow, Ian | Moate, Roger | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Gower, Sir Raymond | Molyneaux, James | Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath) |
| Greenway, Harry | Montgomery, Fergus | Trippier, David |
| Grieve, Percy | Moore, John | Trotter, Neville |
| Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St Edmunds) | Morgan, Geraint | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) | Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth) | Viggers, Peter |
| Grist, Ian | Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester) | Waddington, David |
| Grylls, Michael | Mudd, David | Wakeham, John |
| Gummer, John Selwyn | Murphy, Christopher | Waldegrove, Hon William |
| Hamilton, Hon Archie (Eps'm&Ew'll) | Myles, David | Walker, Rt Hon Peter (Worcester) |
| Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Neale, Gerrard | Walker, Bill (Perth & E Perthshire) |
| Hampson, Dr Keith | Needham, Richard | Wall, Patrick |
| Hannam, John | Nelson, Anthony | Waller, Gary |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Neubert, Michael | Walters, Dennis |
| Ward, John | Whitney, Raymond | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Warren, Kenneth | Wickenden, Keith | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Watson, John | Wiggin Jerry | |
| Wells, John (Maidstone) | Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Wheeler, John | Winterton, Nicholas | Mr. Anthony Berry and Mr. Carol Mather |
| Whitelaw, Rt Hon William | Wolfson, Mark |
§ Question accordingly negatived