HC Deb 06 February 1980 vol 978 cc649-55
Dr. John Cunningham

I beg to move amendment No. 9, in page 3, leave out lines 16 to 42.

I shall be brief, as usual. Clause 3 gives the NEB the power to pass to the Secretary of State, with a consequential reduction of its capital, the proceeds of disposals that could be directed by the Secretary of State.

The way in which the clause is drafted leaves open the possibility, which the Secretary of State mentioned, that the NEB will retain some of the proceeds of its disposals for reinvestment. Without the clause, the NEB would have no power to remit the proceeds of disposals to the Government, and the much-publicised but now doubtful raising of £100 million as a contribution to the reduction of the public sector borrowing requirement would not be possible.

We are opposed to the disposal of public assets in that way. No sound commercial judgment is in evidence for insisting on the disposal.

Mr. David Mitchell

The purpose of the clause is to put into effect the matters that were debated at some length on amendment No. 8. Therefore, I can be as brief as the hon. Member for White-haven (Dr. Cunningham).

As the amendment is consequential, it follows automatically that the Government feel that they should have the machinery by which they can transfer the public dividend capital by reduction and enable it to parallel the reduction in assets and money transferred to the Treasury with the reduction in the nominal public dividend capital. For that reason, we are unable to accept the amendment.

Question put, That the amendment be made:—

The House divided: Ayes 225, Noes 302.

Division No. 158] AYES [10.55 pm
Abse, Leo Archer, Rt Hon Peter Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)
Adams, Allen Armstrong, Rt Hon Ernest Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)
Allaun, Frank Ashley, Rt Hon Jack Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood
Anderson, Donald Ashton, Joe Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)
Bidwell, Sydney Grant, John (Islington C) Owen, Rt Hon Dr David
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) Palmer, Arthur
Boothroyd, Miss Betty Hardy, Peter Park, George
Bradley, Tom Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Parry, Robert
Bray, Dr Jeremy Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith Pavitt, Laurie
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) Haynes, Frank Prescott, John
Brown, Ronald W. (Hackney S) Healey, Rt Hon Denis Price, Christopher (Lewisham West)
Brown, Ron (Edinburgh, Leith) Heffer, Eric S. Race, Reg
Buchan, Norman Hogg, Norman (E Dunbartonshire) Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds South)
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Holland, Stuart (L'beth, Vauxhall) Richardson, Jo
Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) Home Robertson, John Roberts, Allan (Bootle)
Campbell, Ian Horam, John Roberts, Ernest (Hackney North)
Campbell-Savours, Dale Huckfield, Les Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)
Canavan, Dennis Hudson Davies, Gwilym Ednyfed Robertson, George
Cant, R. B. Hughes, Mark (Durham) Rodgers, Rt Hon William
Carmichael, Neil Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen North) Rooker, J. W.
Carter-Jones, Lewis Hughes, Roy (Newport) Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)
Clark, Dr David (South Shields) Janner, Hon Greville Rowlands, Ted
Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) Jay, Rt Hon Douglas Ryman, John
Cohen, Stanley John, Brynmor Sandelson, Neville
Coleman, Donald Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rhondda) Sever, John
Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. Jones, Barry (East Flint) Sheerman, Barry
Cook, Robin F. Jones, Dan (Burnley) Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert (A'ton-u-L)
Craigen, J. M. (Glasgow, Maryhill) Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Shore, Rt Hon Peter (Step and Pop)
Crowther, J. S. Kerr, Russell Short, Mrs. Ranée
Cryer, Bob Kilroy-Silk, Robert Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)
Cunliffe, Lawrence Lambie, David Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)
Cunningham, George (Islington S) Lamborn, Harry Silverman, Julius
Cunningham, Dr John (Whitehaven) Lamond, James Smith, Rt Hon J. (North Lanarkshire)
Dalyell, Tam Leadbitter, Ted Soley, Clive
Davidson, Arthur Leighton, Ronald Spearing, Nigel
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) Spriggs, Leslie
Davis, Clinton (Hackney Central) Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Stallard, A. W.
Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford) Litherland, Robert Stewart, Rt Hon Donald (W Isles)
Deakins, Eric Lofthouse, Geoffrey Stoddart, David
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Lyons, Edward (Bradford West) Stott, Roger
Dempsey, James McDonald, Dr Oonagh Strang, Gavin
Dewar, Donald McElhone, Frank Straw, Jack
Dixon, Donald McGuire, Michael (Ince) Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton West)
Dobson, Frank McKelvey, William Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Dormand, Jack MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor Thomas, Mike (Newcastle East)
Douglas, Dick Maclennan, Robert Thomas, Dr Roger (Carmarthen)
Douglas-Mann, Bruce McMahon, Andrew Thorne, Stan (Preston South)
Dubs, Alfred McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, Central) Tilley, John
Duffy, A. E. P. McNally, Thomas Tinn, James
Dunn, James A. (Liverpool, Kirkdale) McNamara, Kevin Torney, Tom
Dunwoody, Mrs. Gwyneth McWilliam, John Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Eadie, Alex Magee, Bryan Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Eastham, Ken Marks, Kenneth Walker, Rt Hon Harold (Doncaster)
Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire) Marshall, David (Gl'sgow, Shettles'n) Watkins, David
Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Weetch, Ken
English, Michael Marshall, Jim (Leicester South) Wellbeloved, James
Evans, loan (Aberdare) Martin, Michael (Gl'gow, Springb'rn) Welsh, Michael
Evans, John (Newton) Mason, Rt Hon Roy White, Frank R. (Bury & Radcliffe)
Ewing, Harry Maxton, John White, James (Glasgow, Pollock)
Field, Frank Maynard, Miss Joan Whitlock, William
Flannery, Martin Meacher, Michael Wigley, Dafydd
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Mellish, Rt Hon Robert Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Foot, Rt Hon Michael Mikardo, Ian Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
Ford, Ben Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Wilson, Gordon (Dundee East)
Forrester, John Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby) Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)
Foster, Derek Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wythenshawe) Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Foulkes, George Morris, Rt Hon Charles (Openshaw) Winnick, David
Fraser, John (Lambeth, Norwood) Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon) Woodall, Alec
Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Morton, George Woolmer, Kenneth
Garrett, John (Norwich S) Moyle, Rt Hon Roland
Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick Wrigglesworth, Ian
Ginsburg, David Newens, Stanley
Golding, John Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Gourlay, Harry O'Halloran, Michael Mr. James Hamilton and
Graham, Ted O'Neill, Martin Mr. Hugh McCartney
Grant, George (Morpeth) Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
NOES
Adley, Robert Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East) Biffen, Rt Hon John
Aitken, Jonathan Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) Biggs-Davison, John
Alexander, Richard Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) Blackburn, John
Alison, Michael Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Blaker, Peter
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Bell, Sir Ronald Body, Richard
Ancram, Michael Bendall, Vivian Bonsor, Sir Nicholas
Arnold, Tom Benyon, Thomas (Abingdon) Boscawen, Hon Robert
Aspinwall, Jack Benyon, W. (Buckingham) Bottomley, Peter (Woolwich West)
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Bevan, David Gilroy Bowden, Andrew
Atkins, Robert (Preston North) Best, Keith Boyson, Dr Rhodes
Bradford, Rev. R. Hastings, Stephen Newton, Tony
Bright, Graham Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Normanton, Tom
Brinton, Tim Hawksley, Warren Nott, Rt Hon John
Brittan, Leon Hayhoe, Barney Osborn, John
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Heddle, John Page, John (Harrow, West)
Brooke, Hon Peter Henderson, Barry Page, Rt Hon Sir R. Graham
Brotherton, Michael Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael Page, Richard (SW Hertfordshire)
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe) Hicks, Robert Parris, Matthew
Browne, John (Winchester) Higgins, Rt Kon Terence L. Patten, Christopher (Bath)
Bruce-Gardyne, John Hill, James Patten, John (Oxford)
Bryan, Sir Paul Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham) Pawsey, James
Buchanan-Smith, Hon Alick Holland, Philip (Carlton) Penhaligon, David
Budgen, Nick Hooson, Tom Percival, Sir Ian
Bulmer, Esmond Hordern, Peter Pink, R. Bonner
Burden, F. A. Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Pollock, Alexander
Butcher, John Howell, Rt Hon David (Guildford) Porter, George
Butler, Hon Adam Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch (S Down)
Cadbury, Jocelyn Howells, Geraint Price, David (Eastleigh)
Carlisle, John (Luton West) Hunt, David (Wirral) Proctor, K. Harvey
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) Pym, Rt Hon Francis
Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn) Hurd, Hon Douglas Raison, Timothy
Chalker, Mrs. Lynda Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) Rathbone, Tim
Channon, Paul Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal)
Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) Jessel, Toby Rees-Davies, W. R.
Clark, Sir William (Croydon South) Johnson Smith, Geoffrey Renton, Tim
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Johnston, Russell (Inverness) Rhodes James, Robert
Cockeram, Eric Jopling, Rt Hon Michael Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon
Colvin, Michael Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Ridley, Hon Nicholas
Cope, John Kaberry, Sir Donald Rifkind, Malcolm
Cormack, Patrick Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Corrie, John Kershaw, Anthony Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Costain, A. P. Kimball, Marcus Ross, Wm. (Londonderry)
Cranborne, Viscount King, Rt Hon Tom Rossi, Hugh
Critchley, Julian Knight, Mrs Jill Rost, Peter
Crouch, David Knox, David Royle, Sir Anthony
Dean, Paul (North Somerset) Lang, Ian Sainsbury, Hon Timothy
Dickens, Geoffrey Latham, Michael St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon Norman
Dorrell, Stephen Lawrence, Ivan Scott, Nicholas
Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Lawson, Nigel Shaw, Giles (Pudsey)
Dover, Denshore Lee, John Shaw, Michael (Scarborough)
du Cann, Rt Hon Edward Le Merchant, Spencer Shelton, William (Streatham)
Dunn, Robert (Dartford) Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Durant, Tony Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Shepherd, Richard(Aldridge-Br'hills)
Eden, Rt Hon Sir John Lloyd, Ian (Havant & Waterloo) Shersby, Michael
Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke) Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) Silvester, Fred
Eggar, Timothy Loveridge, John Sims, Roger
Elliott, Sir William Luce, Richard Skeet, T. H. H.
Emery, Peter Lyell, Nicholas Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)
Eyre, Reginald Macfarlane, Neil Smith, Dudley (War. and Leam'ton)
Fairgrieve, Russell MacGregor, John Speller, Tony
Faith, Mrs Sheila MacKay, John (Argyll) Spence, John
Farr, John McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury) Spicer, Jim (West Dorset)
Fell, Anthony McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) Spicer, Michael (S Worcestershire)
Fenner, Mrs Peggy McQuarrie, Albert Sproat, Iain
Finsberg, Geoffrey Madel, David Squire, Robin
Fisher, Sir Nigel Major, John Stainton, Keith
Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh N) Marland, Paul Stanbrook, Ivor
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Marlow, Antony Stanley, John
Fookes, Miss Janet Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Steel, Rt Hon David
Forman, Nigel Marten, Neil (Banbury) Steen, Anthony
Fowler, Rt Hon Norman Maude, Rt Hon Angus Stevens, Martin
Fox, Marcus Mawby, Ray Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) Mawhinney, Dr Brian Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire)
Fraser, Peter (South Angus) Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Stokes, John
Fry, Peter Mayhew, Patrick Stradling Thomas, J.
Galbraith, Hon T. G. D. Mellor, David Tapsell, Peter
Gardiner George (Reigate) Meyer, Sir Anthony Taylor, Robert (Croydon NW)
Gardner, Edward (South Fylde) Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch) Tebbit, Norman
Garel-Jones, Tristan Mills, Iain (Meriden) Temple-Morris, Peter
Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian Mills, Peter (West Devon) Thompson, Donald
Glyn, Dr Alan Miscampbell, Norman Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)
Gorst, John Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Thornton, Malcolm
Gow, Ian Moate, Roger Townend, John (Bridlington)
Gower, Sir Raymond Molyneaux, James Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath)
Greenway, Harry Montgomery, Fergus Trippier, David
Grieve, Percy Moore, John Trotter, Neville
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St Edmunds) Morgan, Geraint van Straubenzee, W. R.
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth) Viggers, Peter
Grist, Ian Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester) Waddington, David
Grylls, Michael Mudd, David Wakeham, John
Gummer, John Selwyn Murphy, Christopher Waldegrove, Hon William
Hamilton, Hon Archie (Eps'm&Ew'll) Myles, David Walker, Rt Hon Peter (Worcester)
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Neale, Gerrard Walker, Bill (Perth & E Perthshire)
Hampson, Dr Keith Needham, Richard Wall, Patrick
Hannam, John Nelson, Anthony Waller, Gary
Haselhurst, Alan Neubert, Michael Walters, Dennis
Ward, John Whitney, Raymond Young, Sir George (Acton)
Warren, Kenneth Wickenden, Keith Younger, Rt Hon George
Watson, John Wiggin Jerry
Wells, John (Maidstone) Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery) TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Wheeler, John Winterton, Nicholas Mr. Anthony Berry and Mr. Carol Mather
Whitelaw, Rt Hon William Wolfson, Mark

Question accordingly negatived

Back to
Forward to