HC Deb 19 December 1979 vol 976 cc619-21
13. Mr. Grimond

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland when he expects the all-party talks about the government of Scotland to conclude.

Mr. Younger

We received only this week the last of the replies from the other parties. We hope that it will be possible to establish talks at any rate with some of the parties early in the New Year. It is too soon to forecast when they will end.

Mr. Grimond

Does that reply mean that there is still no agreement, even about the agenda? If there is such an agreement, does it include the prospect of a directly elected Assembly?

Mr. Younger

I understand from the replies received that most of the other parties are prepared to undertake talks, but on certain conditions. On the question of a Scottish Assembly, I made it clear in the debate on the repeal order on 20 June that as this matter had been thoroughly thrashed out over two or three years in the House, and had been put to the Scottish people in a referendum, it was not something that people would thank us for going over again and again.

Mr. Michael Martin

Is the Secretary of State aware that local authority housing contracts have been held up by the SDD? Will he give us an assurance that the Government are not using the SDD to delay housing contracts and modernisation contracts submitted by the Scottish Special Housing Association, such as those in the Balornock and Robroyston area? Will he also give an assurance that he will investigate whether this delay has taken place?

Mr. Younger

That is another question, but I assure the hon. Member that no such thing is taking place.

Mr. Allan Stewart

Does my right hon. Friend agree that many people in Scotland are delighted that so-called devolution, as generally defined on the Labour Benches, is now effectively dead?

Mr. Younger

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for his remarks, but I hope that he will agree with me that there is still scope for trying to improve the way in which Scottish business is handled in this House. I hope that we can have talks about it.

Mr. Gordon Wilson

In view of the assurances that were given by Lord Home of the Hirsel during the debate on the referendum about the Conservative Party's proposals for devolution, will the Secretary of State comment on the contrast between the Government's policy of offering Northern Ireland full legislative and executive self-government, including industrial powers, which were not on offer previously, and the paltry talks that are now on offer for the reformation of government in Scotland?

Mr. Younger

I am not surprised that the Scottish National Party is not prepared to take part in these talks, because its objective is the separation of Scotland from the rest of the United Kingdom. Perhaps I should remind the hon. Member that Northern Ireland is Northern Ireland and Scotland is Scotland. We want to do it our way.

Mr. Millan

Is it not clear that now that the Government have been flushed out by being asked to provide an agenda for the all-party talks they have abandoned even their phoney commitment to devolution? Is it not a fact that there is nothing in the suggested agenda that has anything to do with devolution? All that the Government want to talk about now is the management of Scottish parliamentary business. Why was yesterday's meeting postponed, and will it take place later this week?

Mr. Younger

On the last point, I certainly hope to have a meeting as soon as it can be arranged. There have been a number of difficulties in getting all the parties concerned together. On the first point, I agree with what the right hon. Gentleman indicated, namely, that there is scope for discussing how we can improve the conduct of Scottish parliamentary business. That is a desirable end for its own sake. The right hon. Member must accept that after all we have been through in the past three years it is not on to start talking about the whole subject of devolution again.