§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That the Standing Order of 15th June 1976 relating to the nomination of the Select Committee on Procedure be amended, by leaving out Sir David Renton and inserting Mr. Peter Hordern.—[Mr. Graham.]
§ Mr. George Cunningham (Islington, South and Finsbury)On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I entirely 1464 agree with the substance of what has happened, but I must say that I have some sympathy with the procedural points which are being made, particularly the one that is being made now. I, too, have been a victim of this sort of thing.
What often happens at four o'clock on Fridays and at other times is that there are a number of items on the Order Paper which are "called", but no one can follow what is being called. I have suggested before, and repeat firmly now, that it is—I will hang on a minute. May I proceed?
§ Mr. CunninghamI interrupted myself because you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, were interrupting your listening and I saw no point in both of us speaking at the same time. [HON. MEMBERS: "Arrogant."] We are all arrogant in this place, by definition, or we would not be here—
§ Mr. CunninghamI absolve the Chair from that charge. I have suggested before—I think that it is in the best interests of the Chair and for the protection of the Chair—that, when calling items, the Chair should fall over itself to ensure that people know what items are being called. They are numbered on the Order Paper and they have a form of identification on the Order Paper, and it would be—
Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I take the hon. Gentleman's point, but, on the question of the motions which were put, I called, "Money Resolution—Mr. Robert Sheldon". I called both those phrases and then moved on and called, "Mr. Walter Harrison—Pensioners' Payments Bill". I was about to call—in fact I did call—the word "Procedure" when the hon. Gentleman rose. I suggest, with all due deference to the House, that I gave plenty of time on each of those and identified what I was doing.
§ Mr. CunninghamFurther to the point of order—and I will certainly not pursue it beyond this point. The difficulty is. 1465 Mr. Deputy Speaker, that you may say things which are not heard because of the noise which naturally follows the sort of incident which occurred this afternoon. I suggest that, when there is a noise, it is necessary to ensure that the noise abates sufficiently so that people can actually hear what you are saying. Then these incidents would not occur and one would not have the kind of irritation directed towards the Chair which happens often and unnecessarily.
Mr. Deputy SpeakerI am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his remarks and I shall bear them in mind.
§ Mr. MoateNo, Sir. I rise on a point of order. I am sorry to pursue this, but it is a matter of immense concern to all quarters of the House, regardless of the issue on this occasion. As I understand the position, at 3.59 p.m. the Front Bench spokesman sat down—[HON. MEMBERS: "No."] It was 3.59 p.m. on the clock. At that moment other hon. Members were waiting to speak. As I understand it, the normal procedure is that the Government need to seek a closure motion if they are to secure their business. That precedent is important to all hon. Members on both sides and will be important to the Deputy Chief Whip when he sits on this side of the House. It is vital to all our interests that that tradition should be respected. The hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English) was clearly on his feet at 3.59 p.m., yet the Question was put, despite his seeking to catch your eye.
Mr. Deputy SpeakerAt the risk of going over the same ground again, perhaps I may explain to the hon. Gentleman once again that the time by the clock may have shown 3.59 p.m. but, as the House well knows, that moves only at one-minute intervals and it was well on towards the hour of four o'clock when I put the Question. I also wish to say that I explained to the hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English) that I did not see him rise. If I had done so, I 1466 would perhaps have taken other steps, but there was no sign of his rising, so I put the Question, That the Bill be now read a Second time, which was the correct procedure in those circumstances.
§ Mr. EnglishFurther to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This is an unusual step to take, but I must point out to the House that, a quarter of an hour before four o'clock, I went to you and said that the Whips clearly did not desire to move the closure and that therefore I would ensure that a closure had to be moved by reserving my speech until after the Minister had spoken. I stood, as I had informed you in advance I would. You knew that I was going to stand.
§ Mr. EnglishIt is a disgrace.
§ Mr. EnglishI do.
Mr. Deputy SpeakerIt is perfectly true that the hon. Member for Nottingham, West came to the Chair and said that he wanted to speak. But if I do not see him rise, I cannot hold up the business of the House until he has made up his mind to rise.
§ Mr. EnglishEveryone heard me.
§ Mr. EnglishEveryone heard me and saw me.
§ Mr. Bruce Douglas-Mann (Mitcham and Morden)Further to that point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. May I have some clarification of what I understood to be your ruling? If the hon. Member who has the floor at 3.59 p.m. sits down between 3.59 p.m. and four o'clock, are we to understand that it will not be the practice of the Chair to call another hon. Member who rises within that time?
Mr. Deputy SpeakerIt is entirely a matter for the discretion of the Chair how much time is left within the 60 seconds. Quite honestly—
§ Mr. EnglishFurther to the point of order—
Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I was explaining. I hope that the hon. Member for Nottingham, West will contain himself. I am afraid that he is causing me to begin to lose the thread of what I am saying. It is entirely a question of whether the Chair sees another hon. Member rising in his place up to the hour at which the Question is to be put. As I have explained to the hon. Member for Nottingham, West, I regret that I did not see him. Had I done so, I would have called him.
§ Mr. EnglishFurther to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Can we get away from this business of four o'clock? I am sure that you are aware that the debate could have gone on, as long as anyone was not opposing it, after four o'clock.
§ Mr. RidleyFurther to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. A number of us saw the hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English) rise to his feet, and I think that amongst hon. Members who were here at one minute before four o'clock there would be a consensus that the hon. Member rose to his feet.
The point that I wish to put to you is that the fact that you may or may not have seen him seems to leave some doubt in our minds about whether it is correct that the occupant of the Chair should be in a position where he could exercise the same sort of discretion as that which was exercised by Lord Nelson on a previous occasion. That is further reinforced by the difficulty which I experienced on the money resolution.
Mr. Deputy SpeakerI hope that the hon Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury (Mr. Ridley) is not suggesting that any activity was being exercised by me in following such a distinguished and gallant officer who once used a telescope to that effect. I assure the hon. Gentleman that I did not see the hon. Member for Nottingham, West. What is more, I did not see the hon. Member for Cirencester and Tewkesbury either, and I did not hear him.
§ Mr. RidleyI would not for one moment accuse you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, of deliberately failing to see the hon. Member for Nottingham, West. But when you called the money resolution and I was firmly on my feet and, in sight of all, wishing to speak, it appears that again you were unable to see me. I am not suggesting that in any sense you did this deliberately. I merely wonder whether we could help you in any way with a consultant oculist. If two hon. Members in turn cannot be seen, something appears to be wrong. This is a matter which denies to hon. Members the right to make speeches when they are properly entitled to do so, and I believe that whether you saw—
Mr. Deputy SpeakerOrder. I think it is best for me to say to the hon. Member that had I seen him, most certainly I would have called him. During the whole time that I have been the incumbent of this Chair, I have never failed to call any hon. Member who rose if he was in order and if the circumstances were appropriate. I apologise to the hon. Member if I did not see him, but he must take my word that I did not see him.
§ The Question is the procedure motion—
§ Mr. Ridleyrose—
§ Question put and agreed to.
§
Ordered,
That the Standing Order of 15th June 1976 relating to the nomination of the Select Committee on Procedure be amended, by leaving our Sir David Renton and inserting Mr. Peter Hordern.