HC Deb 08 February 1978 vol 943 cc1441-3
10. Mr. Frank Allaun

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what is his approximate estimate of the number of council houses to be completed in Great Britain in 1978 and in each of the three subsequent years; and what steps he plans to take to increase council house building to meet the need for such housing.

12. Mr. Skinner

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what further measures he is taking to increase house building in the next four years.

Mr. Freeson

At present about 200,000 public sector homes are under construction in Great Britain, which should lead to about 150,000 completions in 1978. Completions in following years will depend upon the balance of investment locally between building, buying, conversion and rehabilitation, home loans and improvement within overall housing programmes.

Mr. Allaun

Will the Minister tell the Cabinet—[HON. MEMBERS: "Why don't you tell them?"] It is a free country. Will he tell them that far more of the budget of North Sea oil potentiality should go to housing than is planned at present? The recent public expenditure survey shows that in the last two years £536 million a year has been cut from public housing, building, improvements, acquisition and land purchase and that in the next four years only half of that will be restored. That is not good enough.

Mr. Freeson

My hon. Friend has his channels of communication just as I have mine, and I am sure that together we can make our views known very clearly in the various quarters politically.

Although there have been cuts in either the planned or the prospective public expenditure on housing in recent times, the biggest single drop experienced this year and forecast for the future is the drop in expenditure on interest charges on capital loans. The main problem is to try to ensure that the resources that we make available to the public sector authorities are taken up. My great concern is that these resources are not being taken up, however much I may wish to increase that expenditure.

Mr. Skinner

Is the Minister aware that in the great and glorious oil years an average forecast of 160,000 public sector houses annually is abysmal? Does this not arise from the fact that the IMF decided in December 1976 to cut £300 million from public expenditure in this financial year, never mind last year? Will my right hon. Friend take account of the fact that the hon. Member for Henley (Mr. Heseltine) said at the local government Tory conference that Tory local authorities should not build houses and should not spend money? He chided those Tory authorities that were doing a little towards building council houses, and complained that they were doing too much.

Mr. Freeson

I take my hon. Friend's point about seeking to get some benefit from North Sea oil for public housing and urban renewal. I share his concern about that. However, on the figure of an average of 160,000 public sector houses in the years to come, I do not accept that this derives simply from decisions on North Sea oil revenues and public expenditure levels. It derives equally from the balance of investment in different kinds of housing activities in the future. I want to see equal attention paid to maintaining and improving the existing stock and management of the stock as a whole. Both are important. My concern is that the investment resources available are being rejected by a growing number of authorities, which is causing great disturbance in our housing programme.

Mr. Michael Morris

Does the Minister agree that the money would be better spent in tackling the waste in district councils like Salford, Liverpool and the London boroughs of Camden and Islington where there are thousands of empty houses because of massive municipalisation? When will he tackle that problem?

Mr. Freeson

I remind the hon. Member that that question was answered on a previous occasion. In co-operation with local authority associations, a special study has been established which has completed part I of its first report on the management of the house-building programme. I expect some very good results from the study.

Mr. Carter-Jones

Is the Minister aware that even if the average rate of council house building was 200,000 a year there would still be people in Salford and other parts of the country waiting for a long, long time? Is it not right that the rate of building should be stepped up?

Mr. Freeson

If my hon. Friend will apply that figure—or even a larger one as years go by—to the total housing activity he will see that not just new buildings are concerned, but conversions and improvements. These all mean a net addition to the housing stock. Apart from that reservation, I accept the point that he makes.

Mr. Heseltine

When the Minister takes advice from the hon. Member for Salford, East (Mr. Allaun) and reports on his stewardship to the Cabinet, will he explain why, in each of the years that he has been Minister for Housing, the record has been worse than in the four previous years? The number of starts is down by 50,000 a year, the number of houses for sale is down by 80,000 a year and the number of improvement grants is down by 40,000 a year. All this adds up to the record of the worst Housing Minister since the war.

Mr. Freeson

When I come to the end of my term in office, whenever that may be—probably some time after 1979—there will be many things that I shall still wish to see done in housing and in urban renewal. However, I do not accept any criticism based on the phoney figures that we have just heard.