§ Mr Robert Sheldon accordingly presented a Bill to apply certain sums out of the Consolidated Fund to the service of the years ending on 31st March 1978 and 1979; And the same was read the First time; and ordered to be read a Second time tomorrow and to be printed. [Bill 43.]
§ Mr. CryerOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. During our debate on the Estimates I specifically asked you about a Government reply to our discussion. You were kind enough to say that should the Minister wish to catch your eye you would give him the chance so to do. I am sure you will agree that many important points were raised in that debate, but unfortunately the Opposition Chief Whip blundered into the House and broke up our democratic discussion.
I seek clarification. The general convention of the House, which you, Mr. Speaker, enforce with rigorous fairness, is that before a closure motion is accepted two hours of debate must elapse. In those circumstances, with no Government reply to our debate, it was disturbing for us to discover that less than one and a quarter hours had been allowed for the debate.
Is it possible for you to allow the Minister to reply now, since you indicated that you would give him an opportunity to do so, and I understand that he was most willing to reply? If it is not possible for him to reply, that demonstrates the urgency and importance of the point we made earlier that these Estimates should not be adopted without proper scrutiny.
I shall be pleased if you will give the Minister an opportunity to address the House, because he no doubt has a great deal of valuable information to divulge.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I intend to take serious, not frivolous, points of order. Today is a Supply Day. By long tradition, those who table a motion for debate are entitled to their debate.
1686 There is no stipulation as to the time that should be allowed before Mr. Speaker accepts a closure motion. I had already twice declined to accept such a motion before eventually accepting it.
§ Mr. MaddenFurther to that point of Order, Mr. Speaker.
§ Mr. SpeakerThere can be nothing further to raise on that point of order. I have answered it. I had given the matter consideration, and it was completely within my discretion whether to accept the closure.
§ Mr. EnglishOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is confusing to the public at large if, on a Supply Day, when the business is determined by the Opposition, the motion that precedes it is in the name of the Prime Minister. We here understand why that should be so—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman must come quickly to his point of order. I do not want to hear debating points now.
§ Mr. EnglishWill you in future, as a matter of order, Mr. Speaker, rule that on Supply Days, which are the responsibility of the Opposition, all motions tabled should be in the name of the Opposition?
§ Mr. SpeakerThe hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English) knows that I can make no such ruling.
§ Mr. ThorneFurther to not the last point of order, but the one that preceded it—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. That has been dealt with, and I gave my reply. It was within my complete discretion to decide when to accept the closure.
§ Mr. ThorneOn a fresh point of order, Mr. Speaker. It arises from your comments about the right of the Opposition to debate Supply motions. I recall that when Labour Members were anxious to debate the Employment Protection Bill on a Friday and to ensure that it became law, they were prevented from doing so because closure motions, designed to speed up the progress of the Bill, were not accepted by the Chair because insufficient time had elapsed in debate in accordance with the established practice. We have 1687 broken with that practice today, and I regret—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member has been here long enough to know that different considerations apply on a Friday when Private Members' business is being discussed.
§ Mr. RookerOn a fresh point of order, Mr. Speaker. You referred earlier to the long traditions of the House. It is those traditions that the public outside do not understand. They are some aspects that some of us have been sent here to change. How can I, as I am unable, I understand, to raise a debate under Standing Order No. 9 on proceedings that have taken place here today, explain to the public why things happened today as they have done? How do we explain why £23 billion of public expenditure went through on the nod—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Member is renewing the earlier argument. How he explains all that to the public is a matter for him, but no doubt if he is as eloquent outside as he is in the House, he will do it well.
§ Mr. RookerWith respect, Mr. Speaker, it was within your control to allow us to have a debate—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. I misunderstood the hon. Gentleman. He is not allowed to challenge my ruling except by Notice of Motion on the Order Paper. He is entitled to pursue that course if he wishes to say that I accepted the closure too soon.
§ Mr. NewensOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Does not the business that we have been discussing today come under the heading of Supply, and is it not therefore legitimate business for the House to discuss? We have been discussing the motion tabled by my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, which should take precedence over any other business. If that is so, and as we have put forward a number of arguments on the motion, are we not entitled at some point to a ministerial reply? We understand that it is not possible now for us to have a reply from a Minister, and I personally feel that that is unfortunate. We realise that we must accept your ruling—
§ Mr. NewensMay we be guided on the question when we shall have the opportunity of eceiving a Government reply, and also when we may make our position clear about the Consolidated Fund Bill and other issues?
§ Mrs. WiseFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. If the Minister does not get an opportunity to reply, might not the conclusion be drawn that he is reluctant to speak? Would not that be unfortunate for us all?
§ Mr. MaddenMay I raise a fresh point of order, Mr. Speaker? I am sorry to detain you and the House, but I have been endeavouring to raise this point of order since the business motion was put. Unfortunately, at that time there was considerable competition for your eye. On Tuesday, at column 1,225, the hon. Member for Rutland and Stamford (Mr. Lewis) raised a point of order about the picketing of this House by the National Union of Journalists. At that time on Tuesday—
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman knows that he should have raised that matter this afternoon.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. We must abide by some rules in this House. As I was saying, the hon. Gentleman knows that it was open to him this afternoon at the end of Question Time, when somebody else raised a point of order, to deal with the matter. I do not want to deal with the subject of picketing now, because it has nothing to do with this issue.
§ Mr. MaddenFurther to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I was on my feet, together with the hon. Member for Bristol, North-West (Mr. Thomas), seeking to raise a point of order at the time you called him. We then entered upon the debate on the motion and subsequently took the votes on the Estimates. I sought to raise my point of order at that time, but did not catch your eye.
§ Mr. SpeakerI must rule that it is not possible to raise that matter now.
§ Mr. EnglishOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. We are in great need of your assistance, and of the help of both the 1689 Leader of the House and the Shadow Leader. I am glad to see that one of them is present.
§ Mr. St. John-StevasWould the hon. Gentleman mind saying which one?
§ Mr. EnglishThe hon. Member for Chelmsford (Mr. St. John-Stevas) is so recent a Shadow that I have not necessarily noticed his presence. This is a serious point. Nobody wishes to deprive the Opposition of their due democratic right to discuss matters on a Supply Day. However, we wish to abolish a system under which the Opposition, who do not wish to have £23 billion of public expenditure discussed, have to pray in aid the Prime Minister to move a motion.
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder.
§ Mr. EnglishFurthermore—
| Division No. 19] | AYES | [7.24 p.m. |
| Lamond, James | ||
| Selby, Harry | ||
| TELLERS FOR THE AYES: | ||
| Mr. Ron Thomas and | ||
| Mr. John Lee. | ||
| NOES | ||
| Armstrong, Ernest | Cryer, Bob | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Ashley, Jack | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Ashton, Joe | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Dean, Paul (N Somerset) | Hart, Rt Hon Judith |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Dempsey, James | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Awdry, Daniel | Dewar, Donald | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Bates, Alf | Dodsworth, Geoffrey | Hayman, Mrs Helene |
| Beith, A. J. | Doig, Peter | Henderson, Douglas |
| Bell, Ronald | Dormand, J. D. | Higgins, Terence L. |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Drayson, Burnaby | Hodgson, Robin |
| Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Duffy, A. E. P. | Holland, Philip |
| Benyon, W. | Dunnet, Jack | Home Robertson, John |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Durant, Tony | Horam, John |
| Biggs-Davison, John | English, Michael | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Bishop, Rt Hon Edward | Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Howell, David (Guildford) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Evans, Gwynfor (Carmarthen) | Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H) |
| Boardman, H. | Evans, loan (Aberdare) | Howells, Geraint (Cardigan) |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Ford, Ben | Hughes, Roy (Newport) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Forrester, John | Hunter, Adam |
| Bradford, Rev Robert | Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) | Hutchison, Michael Clark |
| Bradley, Tom | Fowler, Norman (Sutton C'I'd) | Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) |
| Brittan, Leon | Fox, Marcus | James, David |
| Brotherton, Michael | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd) |
| Broughton, Sir Alfred | Freud, Clement | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Fry, Peter | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) |
| Buck, Antony | Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) |
| Budgen, Nick | George Bruce | Kaberry, Sir Donald |
| Burden, F. A. | Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian (Chesham) | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Glyn, Dr Alan | Kelley, Richard |
| Campbell, Ian | Godber, Rt Hon Joseph | Kilfedder, James |
| Cant, R. B. | Goodhew, Victor | Kilroy-Silk, Robert |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Gourlay, Harry | Kimball, Marcus |
| Coleman, Donald | Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | King, Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Cormack, Patrick | Graham, Ted | Knight, Mrs Jill |
| Costain, A. P. | Grant Anthony (Harrow C) | Lamborn, Harry |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Grimond, Rt Hon J. | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Craig, Rt Hon W. (Belfast E) | Grist, Ian | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Caigen, Jim (Maryhill) | Grocott, Bruce | Loyden, Eddie |
| Cronin, John | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson |
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. The hon. Gentleman must resume his seat when I stand up. I believe that the time has come to stop points of order because, clearly, there have been frivolous points of order.[HON. MEMBERS:"No."] In my judgment—and if the House does not like it, it knows what to do—that has been the case.
§ Mr. SpeakerAs he is on his feet, I shall hear Mr. John Lee.
§ Mr. John LeeI beg to move, That Strangers do withdraw.
§ Notice being taken that Strangers were present, Mr. SPEAKER, pursuant to Standing Order No. 115 (Withdrawal of Strangers from House), put forthwith the Question, That Strangers do withdraw: —
§ The House divided: Ayes 2, Noes 223.
| McAdden, Sir Stephen | Pardoe, John | Stanley, John |
| McCrindle, Robert | Parker, John | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| McElhone, Frank | Pendry, Tom | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| MacFarquhar, Roderick | Penhallgon, David | Swain, Thomas |
| MacGregor, John | Perry, Ernest | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) |
| Maclennan, Robert | Peyton, Rt Hon John | Tebbit, Norman |
| McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) | Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) | Prentice, Rt Hon Reg | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) | Prior, Rt Hon James | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Madel, David | Pym, Rt Hon Francis | Tomlinson, John |
| Magee, Bryan | Richardson, Miss Jo | Torney, Tom |
| Mahon, Simon | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) | Trotter, Neville |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) | Tuck, Raphael |
| Mason, Rt Hon Roy | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Mather, Carol | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Viggers, Peter |
| Maudling, Rt Hon Reginald | Robinson, Geoffrey | Wakeham, John |
| Maynard, Miss Joan | Rodgers, George (Chorley) | Ward, Michael |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Rooker, J. W. | Weetch, Ken |
| Mills, Peter | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) | Weltzman, David |
| Mlscampbell, Norman | Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Molyneauv, James | Salnsbury, Tim | White, James (Pollok) |
| Montgomery, Fergus | St. John-Stevas, Norman | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Moore, John (Croydon C) | Sandelson, Neville | Whitlock, William |
| Morgan, Geraint | Sedgemore, Brian | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) | Williams, Alan Lee (Hornch'ch) |
| Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Mudd, David | Shepherd, Colin | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Neave, Airey | Shersby, Michael | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Noble, Mike | Sims, Roger | Woof, Robert |
| Nott, John | Skeet, T. H. H. | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| O'Halloran, Michael | Skinner, Dennis | |
| Onslow, Cranley | Spence, John | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Spicer, Jim (W Dorset) | Mr. James Tinn and |
| Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) | Stallard, A. W. | Mr. Peter Snape |
| Palmer, Arthur | Stanbrook, Ivor |
§ Question accordingly negatived